Ball joints, tire wear, steering wheel vibration!

[Burntboot]

Mark - Just behind the front cross member is a round tube that runs side to side. Welded to it (on either side) is a square bracket. Put your jack stand on that point. You can also go ahead of the fr axle where the front frame rail splits into a Y, have never used that position as my stands aren't that tall. Its is easily visible with the wheels on.
all detailed in the owners handbook as well. Generally you want the stands as far outboard as possible, I wouldn't try to put them where the jack goes
as there isn't enough width to be safe.
BB

[timsrv]

I usually jack from the front cross-member that's under the radiator. You can put jack-stands anywhere under the sub-frame, but try to avoid areas that slope (stands can slip). I usually use the sway bar mounts (place where sway bar mounts to the sub-frame) & put the mount brackets into the grooved parts of my jack stands. Of course you need taller heavy duty jack stands for this as these locations are already pretty high up. As for the back, jack from under the differential and put the jack stands under the axle as far outboard as possible. The big thing to remember is "safety 1st". Whenever I'm not sure about the stability of a vehicle I grab it and give it a good shake before I climb under (or put any part of my body in harm's way). If it's solid then I feel safe. If it sways then I'll try something different. If shaking it makes it fall, then whatever........I'd rather it fall BEFORE I get under .

PS: Never jack from the front differential. Be very careful about using wood blocks for spacers & NEVER use bricks, concrete or cinder blocks (as they can break without warning). Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay I finally got both front wheels off the ground today at the same time so I could really try to diagnose this issue.

The rubber boot came off without too much trouble. I could not detect any play on either inner or out tie rods, nothing. Its tight. No leaking fluids, the inner which I took the boot off looked really clean and greased.

I did feel out the components in the steering system for play or "feel" or sound, the best that I can detect is there's some play in the arm and linkage that goes from the rack to the steering thingy that has another arm attached that goes to the steering wheel. I don't know what these components are called but I took a pic to show. When my wife moved the wheel back and forth I can feel play here, just a touch, but its the only other play I can detect anywhere. Re-checked both ball joints again too while the wheels were up, no play.

What am I looking at here? What is this rod or arm and who do I eliminate play in it? Seems like it might be the cause of my steering wheel vibration, who knows?!

markIMG_7500.jpg

[Burntboot]

That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

[abracadabra]

Yeah I found out about the bevel gear recall through some searching, I can't find the official bulletin so I'm having a hard time finding out what years it covers, I know I've read 86-87 and I've got an 87

Its really hard to tell if the play is in the gear housing or the joint, for sure I've isolated it to that spot, in fact I had my wife hold the steering wheel in place to lock everything up and thats where the play was in the whole system, and she even said that when I was moving the rod around that it felt like the vibration we get when the speeds get over 55 or so.

It will be really funny to call the local Toyo dealer about a possible recall fix!

Also, what is the technical name for the U joint/shaft if I determine the play is there? I looked at some places like Rock Auto and there's no mention of this part, probably something I'd have to source from Toyota or second hand.

thanks for the help, hopefully I can put an end to this problem before the snow hits here in Maine!!

mark

That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

[Burntboot]

My manual references that part as the "torque shaft" and yes, it would likely be a dealer item only (or scrap yard).

IIRC, the campaign was referenced in one of the threads (perhaps it was on the other site??), I think it was Trestlehead that linked to it.
(I no longer have a copy on file)
I believe it applies up to 87, maybe even a few early 88's but mine was past the vin break and Toyo Canada verified there were no outstanding recalls.

I would be inclined to contact Toyota head office (USA) to find out status of your van and wether or not it has been actioned, sometimes individual dealers will be less than receptive to such enquiries.
There is a reasonably good chance you will be able to get some help on this, assuming that the recall is outstanding.

If the play is in the shaft, you should be able to feel the play within the u-joint in the shaft, itself.
If you place your hand on the output of the BG, holding the housing and the shaft with one hand, then work the shaft up and down.
You will know right away of the play is within the gear itself.
While it may be hard to see, you WILL be able feel it by holding both parts with one hand.
While it is somewhat possible that the wear is in the splines on the end of the joint where it meets rack or BG, they usually seize on there, not get loose.
Unless there was some sort of impact, I can't see the fault being there.
Odds are, it is the bevel gear itself.
Good luck.
BB

[abracadabra]

Okay so I just got back from running some errands and had a moment before the rain to get under the van and REALLY figure out where the play is coming from. Yesterday I ruled out the rest of the steering system but I had SUCH an awful time getting the rack boot back on w/ clamp that I didn't have the patience to go any further.

So today I discovered that the play really is in the arm or joint ABOVE the bevel gear. The reason i can feel it in the torque shaft is because everything is connected i guess. Anyway I couldn't really verify if it was the U joints with the play or the actual shaft itself, the light was bad but I could swear I could see the shaft itself having play when I moved it. My flashlight is out of batteries and its raining so its hard to see.

I took a pic of the area, not sure of the terms once again. Is there a bushing or something else that would cause the maine shaft from the steering wheel to have play?

You know its funny, when I first started getting steering wheel play a long time ago I initially suspected something more directly related to the steering column. Just a hunch, I think I had a similar problem on another vehicle years ago. But everyone said check your tires, balance, alignment, etc, and then I had two different professionals tell me I had a "bad ball joint" or "bad inner or outer tie rod" even though it wasn't true, now I'm back to the beginning, maybe my hunch was right?

Any thoughts would be great. I just dug out my FSM and will peruse the steering section.

Thanks again,

mark in Maine

IMG_7501.jpg

[abracadabra]

BB, in referring to a previous response you made in this post I totally glossed over the part about worn shocks.

I just thought to myself that yes, there seems to be a small amount of play in the main steering shaft or universal joint, but what does that have to do with my worn outside left tire? The tire wear was smooth.
Does one have to remove the shocks to check them? I looked through the FSM and the procedure seems pretty straighforward, as long as the bolts come off easy enough!

maybe I'll look in to that, too.

mark

[Burntboot]

Steering column is made up of a "main shaft" with 1 U-joint, which goes from the steering wheel to about the tilt mechanism then connects to the "intermediate shaft" which has 2 U-joints.
I know when I had my BG off, the bottom end of the int. shaft was floppy (not supported).
In the manual they do reference upper and lower bearings on the main shaft, the upper bearing is in the upper bracket, not sure on the lower bearing.
Looks like a bugger to get too though, as it would likely be column out and complete tear down.

Any chance you have ever pulled the steering wheel to do other things and maybe it isn't quite tight?
In all my years I have never seen an issue in an upper column on any "old style" vehicle.
Anything with POWER tilt and telescope is a different ball of wax.

I would probably start with checking to make sure the steering wheel is actually secured to the shaft and diagnose from there.
If you are into column bearings or U-joints, you may just want to grab something at the local P&P and swap assemblies.
At least you will know how to check donor vehicles for a good unit.
BB

[abracadabra]

Okay so today I'm going back out and checking out the shocks, control arm bushings, and sway bar bushings.

As well, I have a question about checking the ball joints. I've been using the pry method, lifting the wheel and prying between the ground/tire for the upper and the rim/arm for the lower.

I don't have an official pry bar, and my "cheater" rod I use to break nuts loose won't fit right, so I've been using a piece of scrap wood to to this. I'm wondering, how hard does one pry? Because whenever I'm researching tire wear, vibrations, etc, ball joints come up first. And, I also had a mechanic in Philly tell me I had a bad lower ball joint on the drivers side (where I had tire wear)

Are there visual indicators as well for the ball joints? I'm going to dig around for a metal bar and try to pry, check for any looseness.

Oh, another thing, I don't know if this is related, but if I make a real slow, sharp turn (like turning around somewhere with the wheel turned all the way to one direction ) I get a bad clunk from up front......could this be related to some worn suspension part?

I'll update later as I check things out. I've learned alot here, I always heard of control arms and sway bars but now I actually know where they are and what they do. I've rebuilt some old engines etc but this is my first foray in to front ends.....sure do appreciate all the help!

thanks,

mark in Maine

[trestlehed]

Here is the steering bevel gear recall thread. Make sure you read the entire thread.
The link to download the official Toyota Service Campaign doesn't work.
I'll try to dig that up on my home computer and post it later.

http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum...el+gear#p55989

[abracadabra]

Thanks for the post, its good to see that the part is still available, $370!!!

I'll try to call the closest Toyota dealer tomorrow and see if my van falls in to the recall or not. Its a May '87 van.

On other fronts, I did some real inspecting today again.

Control arm bushings seem fine, all the sway bar mounts/bushings are fine, I re checked for the 4th time all the ball joints, there is no play.

When either wheel is off the ground and moved at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions the same light clunk is heard which originates around the bevel gear or shaft above or below it. I really can't tell if its in the gear housing itself or the connections or U joints, its not much play but its the source of the sound and might be the source of the steering wheel vibration.

I'm thinking I'll pull the LF shock just to rule that out, I really checked out the tire that was just up there (now in the back) and it is worn very evenly on the outside, I noted that most tire wear associated with worn shocks is more uneven/scalloped.

Also I did check the maine shaft bolt under the steering wheel cover just to be sure, it was tight.

I'm running around in circles here! I hope I don't have to break down and take it in for a 2nd opinion somewhere. There's one guy who has an aircooled VW shop that a buddy of mine used to take his old 80's Toyota van to, I might give him a ring.

I'm just wondering, is the looseness in my steering connections the source of the play/vibration or did they loosen up due to strain from what the real problem might be?

And also, are the worn outter edge of my previous LF tire associated with the steering vibration?

Man, it'll be nice to nail this one down before the turn of the new year!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

I should add, although it would be really cool to have my problem be something Toyota might fix for free, it doesn't really seem that my symptoms point to a problem with the steering gear right? I mean my steering wheel doesn't have alot of play, the vehicle doesn't wander, but I do have steering wheel vibration at upper speeds and a tire worn on the outside edge.....???

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh, I did find a listing of the recal # SSCK01 for the '87-'88 vans for bevel gear housing inspection....seen on this link

http://yotavans.org/community/tips/recalls.html#5

mark

[Burntboot]

Hey Mark - You really can't get good feel using wood as a prybar. It will make it a lot harder to feel any play.
A metal bar will give a much cleaner feel. For the record, you are looking to pry between the wheel and the lower ball joint stud, not the control arm.
I have done it with both a giant screwdriver as well as a standard crow bar, the longer the bar, the easier it is.
It greatly helps to have someone stepping on the brake pedal while you're checking the ball joints, less things to hold onto.

Not sure what to advise re vibration/wear.
But going in circles is always a bad idea, you need to work through things in a logical manner, fixing and correcting as you go.
It is very important to check things properly as you go.
Prying against the control arm wont show you play in the lowers.
Proper procedure is paramount to accurate diagnosis.

While I wouldn't expect play above the bevel gear to cause tire wear it is something that needs to be addressed.
Reading tires is a lot like tea leaves. But I have always considered outboard tire wear to be a result of positive camber or excessive toe.
Have you managed to get it on a rack to see where you are to begin with?
Have you checked ride height, as it will affect camber?
Hard to know without being there.
BB

[abracadabra]

Ah the going in circles part really starts to make me crazy!

The problem is, from the very beginning of this, many many months ago when I was still in Philly, I tried to rule out the easiest/most common source of steering wheel vibration: out of balance tires. I had my tires pulled, re-balanced, and rotated by the closest Firestone place. Guess what? The steering wheel vibration at highway speeds was actually more pronounced at first!

Now I'm back at a point where I've checked out so many things, and I've always assumed the tires are fine, but, can I really trust the person at Firestone? I mean some of the employees there looked like kids, which doesn't mean the couldn't do a decent job, but can I assume they did?

So thats what makes me crazy. As well, thinking that play in my steering linkage may be just a symptom of another worn out part etc.

I can say though I just rotated my tires again (trying to stay on top of that) maybe a month ago, thats when I noticed the worn front left tire. Rotating the tires did nothing to improve the ride, so, unless ALL my tires are out of balance I have a feeling things are okay on that front.

Also, here's another conundrum: the worn left front tire I rotated, I'm not one to really be on top of noticing tire wear (now I know better!), so I really can't say for sure that the wear actually happened while the tire was in that position (the tires were rotated once before, I'm not sure what pattern they used!).

Complicated, complicated.

Today I do plan on getting under the van again to scope things out.

For sure I have been checking the lower ball joints by prying between the lower ball stud and the rim of the wheel, I pryed really hard on both sides and couldn't feel/see any play. But there is the 9/3'oclock play on both wheels that elicit the same light clunk that seems to come from the bevel gear or linkage.

The FSM also mentions checking the ball joints by removing them and checking for rotation, this seems like alot of work! Is it possible to have a bad ball joint that passes the lever test? Out of all the possible scenarios for what could be wrong the lower ball joint fits the bill, but if there's no play.....well......(and I keep thinking of the mechanic in Philly who told me it was bad......he had a reputation for being pretty intuitive with his repairs......)

Well I'll keep on keeping on, gonna call Toyota today too (local dealer isn't too far away, maybe half hour....gonna check up about the bevel gear recall w/ my van.....)

thanks again,

mark

[abracadabra]

Okay folks, gotta love this.

I spent another hour under the van, bugging my wife to rock the wheel looking/listening for looseness etc.

After shrugging my shoulders and figuring it was now a rack issue, I was staring at my shock absorber before I lowered my jack, and I remembered BB's old post about checking the shocks.

So, I re-checked the tire that was up there, to really inspect the wear on the outside....sure enough, it was not totally even. I wouldn't call it scalloped but still enough for me to get the wrenches out and remove the shock.

Of course removing the shocks is a breeze. I took it in the house, got my manual out to check up on the testing procedure......

And you may have guessed it: this shock is dead! It has many dead spots and won't return at all when compressed. Its the original Toyota branded KYB and it has 170k on it!

Needless to say I'm pretty happy to find an actual bad part, it might not be the end in all this as I've probably damaged/worn some other parts by driving for so long with caput shocks.

Anyway, I'm now calling around for shocks locally, I'll probably just throw on some Gabriels from AutoZone, lifetime warranty, I can't seem to find much else and I don't really want to order online and then have to wait.....

I'll update mid-week once the shocks are in, we'll see how she rides!!

thanks,

mark

[trestlehed]

Mark/Abracadabra,

Here is the steering bevel recall. Download it and print it.
Some dealerships will give you the run-around on recalls and hope you go away.
If you have the actual recall/service campaign printed and in your hands, there isn't
much room at that point for them to deny you or lie to you.

T-CP-K01-0128-W.pdf

As far as shocks go do your homework. I got some replacement shocks that totally suck.
My front end bounces like a mofo over ruts and speed bumps.

[abracadabra]

Wow, very cool! Can't wait to make this happen.

On the shocks front, well, I've done alot of research and it seems alot of folks have a hard time finding good non bouncy as all hell shocks for the 4WD fronts.

I can't find any specific negative info on the Gabriel Ultras, which I'm gonna try.

Also, I've found there are different opinions on what a bad shock acts like depending on the shock....

In my case I figured that because the shock was easy to compress and didn't return or did so unevenly with some pauses/dead spots, my shocks are shot, yes?

I know for sure now when I think about it, my van used to pretty darn bouncy over bumps etc. Then at some point it wasn't, I never noticed and now I'm here.

We'll see what happens tomorrow!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

Well, here's an update.

I got the shocks yesterday from Autozone, Gabriel Ultras, $36 each.

Today I pulled and replaced the old shocks. The passenger side shock was worse than the driver side, which as pretty bad. I compressed the old shock, which stayed compressed, and installed the new shock and went I looked at the old one it was still compressed!

Anyway I wasn't expecting a cure all here, but the ride is better. Not a whole lot.

And of course, as I expected, the steering wheel vibration at speeds over 50 is still there. Its a little subtler now, but it hasn't been cured.

So I'm not sure if the worn shocks cause wear in other components or of this is a separate issue, but I've still got play somewhere. The other day the best I could figure is that it was coming from the the rack. A clunk when you move the wheels at 9 and 3.

Boy I hate to think about replacing the rack!!!!

thanks,

mark