Wheel noise?

[Harbilly]

Best thing I did to the van was toss the auto hubs. Good luck!!And enjoy!

[timsrv]

The other cool thing about manual hubs is everybody recognizes them. "Wow, I didn't know they made those things with 4wd" is a comment you'll hear more frequently with manual hubs.

[abracadabra]

Man this whole topic outlines months of trying to figure out getting all the parts together for the Aisin hubs which I thought was solution to the "wheel noise" I was having (stuck auto hub/engaged driveshaft)

So it should come as no surprise after all this that the day comes for the procedure and things certainly do NOT go smoothly at all.

I took the best looking/feeling pair of hubs I bought out to my folks place in the country. After breakfast I tore down the passenger side wheel, removed the bad auto hub (which wasn't straightforward as one of the torx head screws was stripped and I had to drill the head out to remove the brake assembly!)

Getting the bearings out/cleaned/repacked was no problem even though I never did it before (although I read the procedure over many many times)

Then putting everything back together with the new parts from the WabFab kit, I get to what I THOUGHT would be the easiest part, installing the manual Aisin hubs. I bolted down the hub body and when I went to put the dial on, exactly according to the FSM in the "free" position, it wouldn't be totally "free".....the driveshaft wouldn't turn but there was a clicking sound which made it obvious that the clutch in the hub was touching the axel.

Anyway this just tripped me out. The guy I got the hubs from sold them as working and they were clean and smooth, so I didn't rebuild them. I took the dial off and re-did the whole tension spring/pawl/large spring setup according to the FSM, and still when I put the dial on it wasn't "free".

Also in the FSM, in the section under tearing down/building up the manual hubs it says to check the dial in the body to make sure the bearing in the body moves smoothly in the "free" setting. These didn't do that, either hub. I should have tried this at home, but like I said the guy said they worked....

Anyway after hours of putzing around and blowing my brain about why they didn't work I was losing sunlight and had to get back to Philly for work. I put the hub dial on the body without the clutch and spring so I could at least drive home.

Now when I get back to Philly I have the 2 other Aisin hubs there, which I should have brought for comparison. I tried them in the "free" position....the bearing in the hub body moved smoothly.

I took the dial/clutch off the working ones, put it on the body of the one I was mounting, it worked.

What the hell?

Here's the answer: there are two different size clutches!!!!! The ones I was mounting have a thicker clutch which makes it so you can't totally disengage the hub! Its an obvious difference, see the pic.

Which tells me these hubs I was trying to install, which supposedly worked, could NOT have worked, ever. They must be mismatched? Anyone have an answer for this?

Well at the end of the day my right front driveshaft is now FREE, so I expect my gas mileage to go up.

BUT...........the noise I originally started this post about.....ITS STILL THERE!!

Man, you gotta love this stuff!

PS in the pic the one that works is on the left, I haven't measured but thats quite a difference I think!

Mark

[Harbilly]

I got a noise like that but only in 4wd and it was the big bushing thing we talked about on another thread here. In 2wd the problem was ball joints. Tim will come along and give you some clear ideas now that your hubs are known good and you can disengage 4wd and compare sounds.

[Burntboot]

Buying stuff off the net can be a mixed bag sometimes. Sad part is, sometimes people lie.

You need to lift the rear, UNLOCK the fr hubs and engage 4wd, put it into 2nd gear and let the clutch out.
This will get the entire driveline spinning (except the fr wheels) and you will be able to listen for the noise in question.
If your noise is at the wheel, check out the other thread for parts and procedures.

If your noise is in the diff, well, that would just suck.

BB

[Harbilly]

...and then report back. My bushings on the front axles (inboard ends) made noises only while driving, intermittently and often only while locked but not in 4wd. BB is spot on. Now you can really do some tests. Wheels up. Driving. 2wd. 2wd but locked. 4wd.

[timsrv]

I agree with BB & HB. You need to do some more testing. You might also want to check out that thread on the bushing/bearings I linked you too earlier in this thread. I don't know what to make of the different hub internals. I can only assume somebody swapped parts over from something other than Aisin IFS hubs . Tim

[abracadabra]

Well okay I will have to do some more testing for sure. Time is something I don't have much of, unfortunately.

The noise...I did drive a few months back w/ 4WD and the sound was still there, actually thats how I ended up finding out the right front hub was stuck and the driveshaft was turning. So if the axle issue makes sound in 4WD then probably I'm okay on that front.

I did run through the ball joint checks a while back too, using the bar to check for play on upper/lower. They seemed fine.

I'll have to see if I can find time to lift the back end after I finish up the other wheel/hub next week.

mark

[abracadabra]

To be clear though on the safety of this: I have an auto, so, if I get the back off the ground on jack stands I just get it in drive with 4WD engaged but the front hubs set on "free", and thats the deal? Listen for noise in the front end? I haven't done this sort of thing before so I don't want to injure myself or my father!

mark

[Harbilly]

Well Mark,
I'm going to bet on the bushing that toyota morphed into a small bushing with a needle bearing and maybe the inboard end of your driver side front axle being chewed if the noise is 'tap,tap,tap' of metal on metal and speed related with hubs locked.
But I'm wrong lots of times.
Test in the real world. Drive in 2. Drive locked. Drive in 4. Note the differences. Report back. Takes no time to do this testing!
Harbilly

[abracadabra]

Ah yes once I get the other hub done I will do this sort of drive testing 1st.

But to clarify, the noise isn't metal on metal at all. Its more like wump wump sort like a bad tire or warped wheel or something except that I've already ruled those out because the sound was there before I had a new set of Hankooks installed so....can't be the tires.....

mark

[timsrv]

Yeah, just make sure the hubs are free. Of course always take precautions and plan for the worst (don't put yourself or others in harms way). You never know when something unexpected might happen. Tim

[Harbilly]

Ah. Whump, Whump?
That would worry me (but I worry about everything). I would be imagining anything from jumping steering rack or front suspension parts or steering gear to a relatively innocent dead shock.
Once I was convinced that I had damaged the unit body at the front and I had flex. But I was wrong. Which was good.

Are you sure about the rims and rubber being sized right? Or that the rims are factory for the van? Or true? I run on tracker rims and keep waiting for the inevitable split to happen!

Tim is right, with a weird running noise you have to be thinking anything could happen.
We lost a rear wheel in the mojave once and got to thump down, slide to a stop and watch the tire (with axle still attached) burn about 50 yards off the highway where it had come to rest.

Of course, that was an overloaded Ford!

Anything can happen. Be safe!

[Burntboot]

Mark - Just to clarify, when you had the RS hub off, you verified that the axle cir clip and spacer were there, yes? (see Tim's diag on p1, pts# 43213C & 43413B)
The cir clip secures the drive-axle in the stub axle. The bearings and bushings we are referring to are inside the stub axle.
It is surprisingly easy to miss this, I did the first time around and only realized it once I got the other side apart.

The sound you have could be many things so the testing needs to be done in a logical manner to help narrow the search.

Get the LS sorted out, make sure you check the axle endplay while you're in there, then head out for the test drive.
Take a pad and pencil and write down your findings as you go.
Pick a place where you can do back to back test drives over the same circuit, that way you eliminate road conditions as a possible cause.
Drive in all modes 2wd, 4wd, locked and unlocked, also do it with windows up and windows down and take notes.
This may sound intensive but will only take about 20 mins and will provide most of the info you will need.

Once your back in the driveway, put the front up on ramps. lift the back and put stands under the rear axle.
You are trying to create the same attitude as when driving (weight on fr wheels).
The ramps aren't really required but make it a lot easier to get underneath.
This is where you must have the fr hubs unlocked otherwise really bad things will happen.
If you're not using ramps, make sure to chock the fr wheels.
So now you put it into 4wd (fr hubs unlocked) and trans in drive and slowly release the brake, van should not move but all the shafts should turn.
Also a good time to listen to all the drive-line components while you're under there.

Let us know how you make out.

BB

[abracadabra]

Well I'm narrowing this down I think. Yesterday I had the front wheel up so I could swap out the Aisin hubs with the correct working unit. I noticed that when I spun the wheel, there as a rubbing noise every half rotation or so. I don't think its the calipers rubbing but today I'm going to get the wheel off and get the caliper out to verify.

I think I have done a bit of testing with driving in various scenarios, the sound is TOTALLY connected to the wheel moving, it slows down/speeds up exactly with the wheel. So drive axel is out right? And other things that aren't connected to the wheel itself?

The drag I'm seeing/feeling in the wheel seems to slow the wheel down too.

I'm thinking MAYBE the brakes are dragging or perhaps I have a bad wheel bearing (I did have them out for cleaning/repack and I didn't see anything obvious but I'm not a pro so?? Also it seems you could have a bad bearing and it might not seem like you do)

But if the sound is coming from the wheel/hub, what else could it be but bearing or brake drag? I'll check today and report back.

Oh, if I do new bearings/races for that wheel what do I use for driving in the new races (FSM mentions SST)

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh, to respond to a previous reply, I did check/verify the presence of the C-clip and bolt on the axle, all good.

And you may wonder, if I'm hearing a wheel noise when spinning the tire, why didn't I catch it when I did the bearings/hub? Well, I ran out of daylight when trying to figure out the bunk Aisin hub dial, and had to get the thing together to drive.

mark

[abracadabra]

Okay so I just got back from checking some things out, beautiful day here in Philly.

I lifted the RF wheel and spun the tire, rubbing sound like I mentioned. Pulled the wheel and caliper, no sound. The pads are rubbing. I know a l little bit of rub is okay but I think these are rubbing quite a bit. I can spin the tire but the rubbing slows the wheel down eventually.

I checked w/ the other wheel, to compare, lifted it and spun, much freer spinning, just a slight drag, probably normal.

Glad that it doesn't seem to be the bearings.

Can brake drag make noise like I've been hearing?

I replaced the front pads maybe 6 months ago and I know my calipers were crusty, I thought to myself next time I do those pads I'm gonna have to replace the calipers.

Any thought?

mark

[timsrv]

That's hard to say. You could manually expand that caliper then take for a quick drive being careful not to touch the brakes (at least not initially). If the noise is gone then comes back AFTER applying brakes, then perhaps the caliper is to blame. I'd be a bit surprised if that is it, but at this point you need to look at everything. This type of troubleshooting is all about eliminating possibilities one at a time. Good luck. Tim

[abracadabra]

Yeah I really feel like this isn't the issue, I mean it should drag so much but it also doesn't seem like it would make the sound I'm hearing.

Also I realize today that just by spinning the wheel and having nothing but smoothness/no play that doesn't mean my bearings are out of the loop, since once the weight of the van is on the wheel/bearings it might be a different story.

Ah, wish it were simpler, but whatcha gonna do?

mark

PS the post about the wheel falling off got me kinda worried, I always felt that the noise I'm hearing is something that is amiss but it also doesn't sound/feel like something awful, like I should be scared to drive or fear for the safety of my family....but I guess driving in general is a risk anyway......

[Burntboot]

Tim is right on, again.

Mark - It's good that you've narrowed it down.

What were the pads like that you took off?
Was the material worn evenly or tapered along their length, inboard vs outboard and LS vs RS?

You mentioned the callipers seemed crusty, did you service them while you were in there?
You likely had to compress the pistons in order to get the new pads installed, did all the pistons move freely and equally?
Did you crack the bleeder screws loose to push the pistons back? If so, what did the fluid look like?
At one point you mentioned some missing pad hardware, has that been corrected and does it affect the RS?

What does the rotor surface look like? Any rust/pitting/pad imprints?
Did you replace them or have them turned?

Is the noise a sound only or do you also feel it, either through the brake pedal, steering wheel or seat/floor?
Does it pull or fade to one side while braking?
Does it track straight when not braking?
And most importantly, does the noise change when you brake.
BB