Drive Shaft Arm & Manual Hub - clanking noise

[ratatouille]

Bought this van about a year ago..I've had a bad clanking noise coming from front suspension for about a month now. Every time I go over any bump or crack in road. I first thought it was ball joints need replacing. I got underneath and poked around a bit and noticed the drive shaft arm had a ton of play, and moved in and out of the wheel on drivers side, making the same noise I've been hearing. Passenger side has a little bit of play but not as nearly as much. I opened up and removed the manual hubs and can tell there is definitely something wrong with drivers side. I don't know exactly what's going on, this is my first go at digging into the hubs/wheel/drive arm...

I found this post...http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?574-Wheel-noise&highlight=Warn , and I think I may be missing a spacer and clip on drivers side. I'm wondering if this is all I need to add to lock in the arm into the wheel? I'm worried that I let this go too long and hoping it didn't cause any damage to anything else....

I tried attaching a few pictures as I was taking hubs off. Any guidance given to doing this repair is much appreciated. I some what understood the info given in the thread linked above, but I'm kind of stuck where I'm at and not sure what to inspect/check or what to replace from here....

Thanks for helpin a newb!

1336drivers side after hub removal.

1337Drivers side. Not sure what kind of grease was used, looks like spark plug anti-seize type grease. Still some teeth left when grease scraped away at red arrow.. Wondering if there's enough metal there to engage and drive 4wd, or if this will need replacing?

1338Passenger side after hub removal. Looks ok. Only a tiny bit of play on this side. But no grease.....


1339backside of hubs. driver on left, passenger on right. A lot of foreign fiber-ish contaminent in driver side hub. And obviuosly a different type of grease has been used.




Thanks again...

[timsrv]

Here's another thread that may help you: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?173-metal-knocking-in-4wd. Pay particular attention to THIS POST (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?173-metal-knocking-in-4wd&p=3359#post3359) and take a look at the PDF file within. Good luck. Tim

[ratatouille]

Tim, thanks a lot for the link. I read it all. I love learning about these vans and how to work on them. My hands are capable of any work but my brain does not always function nearly as productive.

Is there any chance you, or someone can instruct through the process of replacing these parts? Or if at least could submit any service manual pictures they might have relating to this area? I have trouble knowing exactly what part is which when reading the instruction given in the bulletin.

Harbilly noted his mechanic put in a spacer and clip to keep axle in hub. I'm pretty sure I'll need to do this as well as replacing the bushings etc.

Thanks again for your time!

[timsrv]

You should really have a factory service manual for your specific year of van. They are on eBay all the time..........quite frequently under $50. For this type work any year manual (87-89) will work (all the same). Here's a link to download a PDF manual for the 87 van: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4u_5zlshRsVDv5v86CiukP7wOD7nKyF/view. Good luck. Tim

[ratatouille]

Thanks Tim.
Would you have part numbers for the spacer and snap ring?

1340

Can this work (replacing bearings, etc.) be done without removing the knuckle? Just the drive arm? Or would it be easier to remove knuckle and leave the drive arm in place... or am I looking at this wrong..do you have to remove both?
Thank you.:wrthy:

[timsrv]

Here's a quote from a post in that thread you linked to above:


Okay, the spring clip (snap ring) is Toyota part #90520‑27023. There are actually 3 spacer sizes available. They are as follows:

90560‑27005 T=2.0, T=2.0
90560‑27010 T=1.8, T=1.8
90560‑27011 T=2.25, T=2.25

These are cheap (probably a couple bucks each), so personally I'd get one of each then go with the one that fits the best. You can get all scientific with a fish scale or dynamometer, but I usually just pull the vice grips with one hand and insert the feeler gauge in with the other. Glad you're making progress, it sounds like you're just about there. Tim

You just need to pull the hub/rotor assy to repack the bearings. Tim

[ratatouille]

Thanks Tim. Slow going but I think I have a good idea of what I'm messing with now. Since I started pulling things apart and getting dirty, the schematics in the manual and diagrams from bulletin all start making sense. Funny how that works. Always stoked to learn more.

Got the hub/rotor disc body off, and bearings and inner parts look good. Bushings are thrashed though, not surprised. So I'll be getting those in a day or so to swap out. That explains the gold tinted grease I noticed when I first removed the manual hub. It was the bushing being cheese grated down by end of axle and mixed with the black grease in there already.

In process of now pulling the drive shaft out of the steering knuckle so I can access the bushing. Doing that by unbolting from "side gear shaft".

1345

(nice, i figured out how to do larger pics...sweeet)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I gathered from the other threads is that once the drive shaft is pulled out, then I'll be hammering out the bushings, and hammering in the new, like below?

1346


Taking a few pics as I go for the other slower newbs out there, ha.


Thanks for help.

[Burntboot]

rat - While it's fine to pound out the old ones with a hammer and drift I would not install them that way.
Brass is a rather soft metal and deforms easily especially when being driven by steel.
Hammering will tend to load one side of the bush more than the other, but pressing it in will load the face evenly reducing the chance of damage plus if something starts to bind, you can stop and regroup, before destroying the new bushes.

Basically 2 options for pressing, pull the spindle and take to a shop or get a length of 3/4in threaded rod and do it in-situ.

I outlined my procedure in the post that Tim linked to, I am sure there are lots of other ways it could be done but this was dead simple and it worked very well. No issues as long as you take your time and watch the progress with an eagle eye.
By cranking the compressing nut by hand (wrench or ratchet), you will feel if it starts binding and can correct it before things go horribly wrong.
It isn't hard, just time-consuming but given the cost of the parts and the amount of time it takes to do, it really isn't worth taking short-cuts.
BB

[timsrv]

:whs: I completely agree. I wonder why these are brass & not bronze? Like BB said brass is soft. I never thought about using threaded rod to pull these in (very good idea btw). I used a hammer but I had a big bolt and a washer that I hammered on (bolt was inside the bushing). The head took the blow & the washer distributed the force to the bushing. I like BB's idea better and will likely try it that way next time (although my way seemed to work fine). Tim

[Burntboot]

Actually Tim, I have no idea what they are made of, they probably are bronze.
Given the price, they could well be made of gold :)

I just know they are a heck of a lot softer than steel, a hammer used in the manner you describe could would also work well.
I pictured him trying to tap it in by going around in circles, on the outside edge.
Too many times I have seen hammers destroy things, especially in the hands of the less experienced.

By squeezing them in, there's less likelyhood messing it up, especially on the inside bush where there's other things that might not appreciate being whacked with an errant blow.

BB.

[ratatouille]

Burn,
Thanks for the wisdom. I am inexperienced in TV mechanics, but not so much in breaking things cause I do get impatient at times. With that said one common pattern I've learned from my van, I am suffering the consequences from the previous owners way of, whacking it in with a hammer, metaphorically speaking. So I'm trying to get things dialed properly.

I did notice your explanation on how to press the bushings in. Having a difficult time visualizing this, but I think I can figure it out. Currently waiting on parts from a friend who works for toyota and was able to slip a bit of a discount. Also trying to unbolt drive shaft with no luck. A hernia and bloody knuckles later those suckers must be rusted permanent....we'll see.

Thanks again.

[ratatouille]

Received a quote on the parts:
1360

140.00 for bushings both driv & pass sides and spacers and lock ring for drivers side, plus some grease..

What do you think? Compared to the other toyota parts sources out there that you all know of, is that a fair price? Tight budget so just want to make sure...

Thanks

[timsrv]

Yes, that's a very good price. You must be getting his employee discount as that's better than my price as a business (I get 30% off MSRP). For that list of parts my price would be $153.51.

What BB is describing is taking a threaded rod that's long enough to go all the way through the bore & putting a nut/washer on the other side to hold it. Then slide the bushing down the rod followed by a washer and a nut. Then simply tighten the nut(s) to "pull" the bushing down into it's bore. Doing it this way you can "feel" any binding that might occur and take appropriate action if needed. In all honesty, I'll probably continue doing things the same way because I'm lazy (don't want to make the effort to get set-up the other way), but I can see advantages to BB's method. Tim

[Burntboot]

Tim - I am with you on the laziness factor, the only reason I decided against doing it that way was I didn't want to trash $300 worth of parts.

No, that is NOT a misprint, I pulled the invoice just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.
I did this back in feb 2011 and the parts were $267+ tax, and that's WITH a 20% discount off MSRP!
Toyota Canada parts pricing SUCKS!

Rat - If you go the threaded rod route, please make sure you tape the threads on the rod.

I made up the tool prior to pulling out the old bushings and it slipped while I was fiddling about, left a perfect and very deep impression of the threads on the inside of the old bushing, you REALLY don't want to do that to the new bushings.

BB

[timsrv]

No, that is NOT a misprint, I pulled the invoice just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.
I did this back in feb 2011 and the parts were $267+ tax, and that's WITH a 20% discount off MSRP!
Toyota Canada parts pricing SUCKS!..............

Maybe the Canadian spec bushings really are made of gold :rol:. Maybe I should start a business just purchasing Toyota parts at US MSRP then reselling/shipping to Canada. Of course I'm sure somebody (or a lot of somebodies) would cry and I'd get slapped with tax evading charges and be run out of business :dizzy:. Tim

[Burntboot]

Actually, it's not a bad idea if you can find a way to do it legally, I'd sure be interested.
Not worth jail time though.

I used to buy stuff from US dealers, but the last time I called I was told, "oh you're in canada? gotta go, bye".
"Supposedly" they've been threatened with loss of franchise if they break the "new" rules.
This policy came into effect when they made all dealers go with the corporate website.
Free trade my ash.

It isn't just Toyota though, it's all the manufacturers.
Seems they like the profit margin in Canada and will do anything to maintain it.

[timsrv]

And here I feel raped every time I buy Toyota parts here in the US (and that's with my discount). I expect to pay more for quality, but how much more? I'm becoming less loyal to Toyota all the time. But what do they expect? 2 seemingly identical parts & one sells for 4X the price of the other. Maybe for a $20k vehicle, but very hard to justify for a $700 daily driver. But then sometimes I wish I had the choice to overpay. So many things now are becoming NLA. Tim

[ratatouille]

Yes, that's a very good price. You must be getting his employee discount as that's better than my price as a business (I get 30% off MSRP). For that list of parts my price would be $153.51....

Plus tax thats what it's costing me as well.

Threaded rod is probably the route i'll be taking....or similar to it... Thanks for painting the picture for me.. After removing the old blown out bushings with hammer and drift, they got real chewed up. So I'd hate to bang the new ones up....

Burnt- I'll be making a trip to B.C. come spring. If there are parts needed, maybe I could get em, and bring them with. Not sure exactly how that would work...maybe I could bouy them and float them up river your way....:fshn: ...you'd probably get em by winter....ha

[timsrv]

Maybe I should start a business just purchasing Toyota parts at US MSRP then reselling/shipping to Canada. Of course I'm sure somebody (or a lot of somebodies) would cry and I'd get slapped with tax evading charges and be run out of business :dizzy:. Tim

Looks like somebody is using my idea. I haven't checked prices yet, but looks like it might be better than your current options. Check it out. http://www.toyotapartscanada.com/oempartscat.html Tim

[Burntboot]

That is interesting, Tim.
I am glad to see they found a workaround to the issue.

Just checked the price on oil filters as it was the only invoice I had handy, it's from last October before the dollar slid 10%.
15601-33021 List is $7.83, I paid $6.70 vs us msrp of $4.91, sale price $3.50.
If that is representative across the board (essentially 1/2 price), then it will be a possible option.

Shipping charges are the other factor that can get in the way, most notable of all, the dreaded "brokerage fee".
USPS seems to be the best, in that regard but there are weight and size limitations.

Thanks for the heads up
BB

[timsrv]

Yes, shipping can be a real problem. I'm always okay paying for actual shipping, but some of these places use shipping to increase their profit margins. I know www.1stToyotaParts.com has done this to the extreme and is the primary reason I don't use them anymore. As much as I like RockAuto.com's (www.RockAuto.com) "close-out sales" They pull the same thing there. With RockAuto you have to really watch it. Every time you add something to the cart the shipping changes.........sometimes drastically. I've watched shipping increase by $10 just by adding $.50 o-ring. I can't tell you how many times I've dropped big parts of my order due to that ridiculous shipping calculator. Tim