Reworking 4wd radiator

[ratatouille]

One thing after another the past few months with my dang van.:wall: I'm hitting about 160,000 on my 88 and it seems everything is starting to fall apart. The other day I noticed my radiator was caked up with gunk and mud and what not as I had fan out and doing some other work. I decided to spray it off to clean it up. A day later after getting back on road, radiator light came on, and I noticed leaking coolant. Diggin back into it, found it was coming from radiator. Pretty banged up now that I have it out. I think I'd like to get it recored. I understand you can't find a new or aftermarket for 4wd. So before I go forward with paying to have this radiator worked on, I'd like to see if it's the original or not.

Does anyone have a picture of the stock radiator for an 88 4wd? Or is there a way to check to see if what I took out is aftermarket or not? Maybe it doesn't matter and I should have it worked on either way. What do y'all think?

Thanks a lot.

[timsrv]

If it's leaking take it to a radiator shop. They can take a tank off and inspect condition. if it's repairable they'll rod it out, put it back together, and fix the leak. If it's too far gone they'll give you the option to recore. Not every radiator shop can recore these radiators, so before getting too involved with your local guys you might ask what they're capable of. If you go with a recore I'd recommend getting the extra row high efficiency one. It will likely cost close to $500, but if you plan on keeping the van long term, it's worth it. Tim

PS: For more information, search the site using the terms "ability radiator"

[JFratzke]

I am going to do this in the next week myself ratatouille. Because I have two (the one in my parts van looks decent) I am going to let my local guy have a look at it first. If he can't handle it, I have seen recommendations on here before. Hopefully somebody who has had a good experience recently can chime in and we can ship to their guy if we need to.

[ratatouille]

Tim- I've already done research into this through the sites. Thanks. A link (http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7216&hilit=4+row+radiator&start=20) I found that has good info is over at TVP..

What I'm trying to figure though, is it worth spending the 400-500 to do a recore on an aftermarket radiator? Or is it better to have this work done on a genuine toyota part? I'm wondering if the radiator I took out of my van is aftermarket or toyota part. I know there is no aftermarket available at this time to buy new...but has it always been that way? I'm not seeing any toyota stamp or label on my radiator to prove it's toyota..

I've taken my radiator around town, so far I've got mixed responses on it, but no one so far is really confident in squeezing the 4-row into the narrow radiator. Most say it's not possible...I know it is.. One shop quoted me $1,200 and said they would try if I wanted them too. I was hoping to find a local shop but it's looking slim. I wanted to see how they did the work, and I'm out of my daily driver right now. The skateboard is getting a lot of miles right now... Most likely I'll be mailing it out to a shop...

[timsrv]

Not knowing quality differences between AM and OEM, I would feel better sending a known OEM in for recore. Keep in mind the only parts that will be reused are the tanks & mounting brackets, but I suspect these parts would likely be thicker/stronger on OEM (but don't know that for sure). Yes, until about 3 or 4 years ago AM radiators were available for 4wd vans. To my knowledge, they only made these with transmission coolers (OEM made with or without depending on if it were a manual or auto transmission). So in your case, since your van is a manual transmission, if it doesn't have the transmission cooler nipples, it would be safe to assume it is OEM. I used to have 5 or 6 OEM 4wd radiators until a metal thief stole them all a couple years ago (bastard) :pissed:. If I still had these I'd be happy to describe and post pics. Tim

[ratatouille]

Thanks for the info Tim.

I found a shop thats semi local that a friend recommend I use. They told me the radiator I have is original. The shop lead there talked me out of spending the extra money to squeeze a 4 core into the radiator. They say they rather not heat up and stretch the old radiator metal tanks to fit a 4 core in. Also I was told it really is not necessary to do the 4 core, because by the time the fluid passes through the 3 cores it's already hot and the 4th core does not do anything. This shop said 3 core high efficiency core will be more then enough for my van. I was told that also, by putting a 4 core in, the radiator becomes more ridged. These radiators are 3 core so that they flex and move with the bumps and vibrations of the 4wd van. If they do the 4-core, it raises the risk of radiator cracking.

I was quoted 404.00 to do a 3 core high efficiency. I think it was about 120 for labor and 260ish for parts..plus 20 or so for tax.. I may get a small break for paying with fiat.

Should I go ahead and go with what this shop is recommending? Does it make sense what their telling me? 3-core high efficiency instead of 4 core?

Dropped the radiator off today, but they won't build the core till Monday. So I have the weekend to sleep on it in case I decided to go somewhere else.

Thank you very much.

[timsrv]

The funny thing with experts is half always seem to disagree with the other half :dizzy:. When it comes to radiators, I'm no expert. Everything I have posted about radiators is based on what my radiator guy has told me...............and I consider him to be an expert (after all, he works on them all day every day). But your guy probably does too, so who do you believe? What he says makes sense, but so does the stuff my guy says (too bad they are opposite things). I went with the 4 core and have been using it for almost 10 years. I guess it's a good thing I didn't know it was inferior because I paid over $500 for it.

Regardless of which way you go, if you stick with high efficiency it will still be better than OEM. If you trust your guy, then just do what he says. If he believes the 3 core is better he'll likely do a better job on it. If you go against his recommendations, then maybe he'll "forget" to make a solder joint or "accidentally" overstretch a tank (if for no other reason than to prove his point) :LOL2:. I'm kidding around of course, but the point is don't make him do something he doesn't believe in. It sounds like he'll stand behind the 3 core, but probably not the 4. Good luck and take some pics when it's complete. Tim

BTW, I've heard the 3 core vs 4 core argument before. I think it's kind of like the Ford vs Chevy arguments. I think it boils down to preference. I think some of the claims (on both sides) are BS, but who knows. As long as you go high efficiency I think you'll be good..........at least better than stock :thmbup:.

[coronan]

I personally think $500 for a radiator is Outragiously over priced.

I am considering an alternative radiator.
Here is what i have gathered
Stock radiator for a 4x4 van is 24" x 13 and uses 1.25" hose (33mm) located on Bottom Left and Top Right
Toyota Supra 24 x 16
Poniac Fiero 19 x 15, Top Left, Bottom Right
VW Jetta 24 x 13, Right side hose connections in and out
VW Sorracco 23 x 12.5 (expensive for some reason)
Toyota MR2 29.75 x 14, 1.25 hose
Toyota Corolla 83 - 87 (Ae86) 21 x 12.75, 1.3 hose connections, Bottom Left, Top Right. PURCHASED

I haven't had time to install the corolla radiator yet. I need to change the hose attachment size. I will document it here this summer, when i do. But it only cost me $200, including 2 electric fans, all aluminum construction.

I hope this information helps inspire someone else not to drop $500 on a custom radiator.

[timsrv]

Yes, please share your results with us. But remember, just one severe overheating episode could easily exceed the cost of an "overpriced" quality radiator. I'm happy to say I've had over 10 trouble free years so far with mine..........and it was a "drop in" exact fit (no duct tape or bailing wire required). Good luck. Tim

[coronan]

Wow! Duck Tape and bailing wire!!!

I didn't realize that was my reputation.

[timsrv]

:rol::LOL2:

[djshimon]

This doesn't say it's for a 4wd, and I like where you're going with the Corolla radiator, but I just saw this on the ebay. It looks to be about the same as the Corolla:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ProRad-Radiator-New-Toyota-Van-89-88-87-86-1989-1988-1987-1986-8010029-/370937807003?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AToyota|Model%3AVan&hash=item565d9dc09b&vxp=mtr



Condition
: New


Core material
: Copper


Core dimensions
: 13.63 x 21.63 x 2 in.


Inlet size
: 1.38 in.


Outlet size
: 1.38 in.


Overall dimensions
: 21.63 x 13.63 x 2 in.


Automatic transmission cooler
: Yes


Anticipated ship out time
: 1-2 business days


Product fit
: Direct fit


Recommended use
: OE Replacement


Product color/finish
: Natural


Tank material
: Brass

[coronan]

That radiator looks spot on!!!
I see 2 minor things but they shouldn't effect fitment. The small air bleed tube at the top right should not have a bend. But you could probably cut it to make it straight. The seam down the middle of the core does not appear on my 4x4 radiator.

[timsrv]

That radiator won't fit a 4wd. It's for a 2wd. 4wd radiators are shorter to make room for the front differential. The lower mounts are also different on the 4wd radiators. To my knowledge, nobody makes radiators for 4wd vans anymore. Your only option would be to get a recore or hobble something in there that doesn't belong. Tim

[djshimon]

Bummer dude.

[coronan]

While this option might not be for everyone; I liked the way the corolla radiator went in.

It is taller but does not hang below the chassis.

Being as my front diff is out for rebuild this may apply better to a 2wd application.
Personally I will be able to compensate for the differential fitment later this summer when do my my lift, and center mounted, 7.5" differential.

If i did have a 2wd van i would consider tilting the front of the radiator down so that it could pull air more freely from below.
It would limit certain service to the crank pulley, timing cover. But pulling the radiator is only a few bolts any how.

I used 2 1/4x22" universal lower radiator hoses to reach over to the passenger side. They are married together with a piece of 1" galvanized pipe.

1565
Side by side

1566
New bracket all tacked up. It also offers a little bit of bash protection.

1567
Despite the new radiator being taller. None of it hangs below the frame.

1568
Rubber pads between the bracket and radiator.

1569
New bracket welded, painted and ready for reassembly.

1570
Final assembly. Note new upper radiator bracket and long double hose on the lower radiator port. If you do this make sure it cant rub on the crank pulley.
Molded hoses probably flow better an ill be ordering some from rock auto.
Upper hose is stock but trimmer from both ends to keep it from kinking.

I lacked the sheet metal for a fan shroud so they got mounted directially. I'll bet one fabbed up next week.
I'm curious to see how cool it runs with 66% coverage. it will be a fun before and after test.

Space is tight over on the passenger side due to the AC tubes.

Also in the picture is an HHO bubbler.

Anyone want my old radiator with electric fans?

[JDM VANMAN]

Coronan, that's a nice set up, I might be interested in the radiator if it's for a manual transmission. Thx

[timsrv]

Wow! I'm impressed (no bailing wire or duct tape) :LOL2:. I was going to ask how you planned on getting access to the radiator cap, but then realized you won't need to (redundant). I like the idea of aluminum here. Please keep us posted on how it cools. Too bad you couldn't find one with the lower hose outlet on the left. The only thing marginally "hokey" is that long scabbed together hose, but I'm sure you'll improve on that. Nice job! Thanks for posting. Tim

[timsrv]

Coronan, that's a nice set up, I might be interested in the radiator if it's for a manual transmission. Thx

Auto transmission radiators can be used on anything. If you're putting it with a manual transmission you simply don't use the transmission cooler part. It's only a problem if you're putting a manual only radiator on an auto............but then you can always use a remote cooler instead. Tim

[coronan]

Thanks Tim.

@ JDM: My van is MT. The whole thing is bolt in except the upper radiator bracket. I had to cut out the old one. And chose to weld the new one. It could be made to bolt in but i didn't have a pancake bolt handy.

1571
Then it would fit under the passenger side engine cover and be reverse compatible.

[ratatouille]

Been away on travel so haven't had time to post much on progress on my van. But I just wanted to note that I got my recored radiator back and installed it back in. The place I went did clean and fast work. They even fixed the bottom mounting bracket I broke when taking it out. I didn't ask them to do it, they just did it with no charge. Also through a new drain plug in for me, no charge. I paid just over 400 for the recore. I went with a 3-core high efficiency. Turn around time was about 2 1/2 days. Last week or so it was about 103 degrees, 4 or 5 days in a row...I was grinning ear to ear as I blasted the a/c around town and on freeway and the temp never rose above a quarter way up. After giving it a thorough test in some serious heat, I am VERY pleased with pulling the trigger on the recore. With exception of a bad float in the reservoir tank, I'm stoked I can check this big chunk off list of to-do's. If anyone is near Bellflower,Ca and interested in a recore I can give info on the shop that I dealt with. They were great.

[coronan]

Anyone have a coolant FLOW diagram????
I' suspecting some air in system.

[coronan]

found it!

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?67-Getting-to-know-all-the-coolant-hoses-of-your-Vanwagon!

[coronan]

Results:

Cooling is improved but still challenged on 100*F + Days.

I have the stock Toyota Thermostat with 3 1/8 holes drilled in it to help get air out and make it run a bit cooler when the thermostat is shut.

I also added rubber sheet under the van to "scoop" air into the radiator on the freeway. This was a great bang for the buck mod and allows my fans to shut down when cruising on the HWY.
(pics soon)

I think the biggest challenge we face with the vans is not an undersized cooling system But POORLY LOCATED RADIATOR.
Maybe someday I'll plumb it all the way to the back and mount it on the tailgate like the dessert race trucks.

The other thing the van lacks is a high pressure radiator cap. I had a good parts guy who helped me find a 19 lb cap. This reduces the temperature at which the coolant boils. It helps keep coolant in the system when the gauge goes up past 3/4. (I did this mod before replacing the radiator).

Also I'm still Running water wetter.

Go to Pirate4x4 and read cooling 101.

Next I need to find a place for a surge tank .

[ratatouille]

I also added rubber sheet under the van to "scoop" air into the radiator on the freeway. This was a great bang for the buck mod and allows my fans to shut down when cruising on the HWY.

The other day I was helping my friend with his 89 he just got. I noticed it had a scoop on the bottom that looks OG. I wonder if toyota had these stock on some of the years of vans?

[timsrv]

Here's a picture of the scoop I made:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/cooling%20system/IMG_2376_zps1e578c72.jpg

Of course mine won't be as forgiving as rubber, but it's still up pretty high, and I don't go off road with this van anyhow. On the plus side, I too noticed immediate improvement in highway speed cooling. This mod is easy and cheap. Tim

PS: For more info on my cooling mods, here you go: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2759-Cooling-system-Mods

[scotty]

Hey Coronan, did you ever get your front differential back into your van with the Corolla radiator in it? Was there enough space?

[boogieman]

5171

so i picked up the 87 cargo and drove from austin to abq no problem, i was surprised to see and hadnt seen in the for sale pics that the radiator installed was for a 2wd...ill be rectifying the situation as im not totally confident its gonna survive and theres no way the shroud is gonna fit but in a jam this could get you home..

[boogieman]

5579

mmmm tasty

[timsrv]

Okay, so that last picture has me interested. Where did you get it and how much $$$? Do you have a name brand & part number? What mods were required to make it fit/mount correctly? Please share. Tim

[boogieman]

5581

well this turned out to be more project than i wanted but im glad its finally in the van.
i started with a $112 delivered universal ford style 25x19 radiator with 3" tanks and 2 rows of 1" off of ebay and sliced it down to size...used some of the scrap to cap the tanks and turned a couple right sized spigots on the lathe....a couple tabs at the front lower corners mount on the oem rubber standoffs..
its a tight fit width wise as i had to remove the washers behind the front upper control arm mount and would probably use a slight narrower one but that might also make the shroud mount more difficult...i was able to mount the shroud although its just a tad high and the fan just kisses the removable lower section so i have it off for now until i can figure out how to lower it, im also using an 89 fan which has bigger blades than the 87...ill probably just leave it off
a friend did all the welding for me so i dont really know how much that would cost but he says that roflroflroflrofl is easy...he builds titanium bike frames so go figure.
anyhow i have another van that needs one but im looking more at the scirocco style which are more the right size and just play around with the spigots...or the griffin that VanCo used for $290..it seems like the lowest hassle deal...its weird how many of the scirroco radiator options are available..i mean how many sciroccos are out there? i think a manufacturer could be convinced to make an aluminum radiator for the 4x4s if we could pool an order together....

[timsrv]

Wow! That's a bit more work than I'd be willing to tackle. Looks excellent though! Did it pressure test good after the welding?

[boogieman]

i was supposed to do that because the welder was concerned about one area but ended up just mounting it..its got a couple heat cycles on it and so far so good...

[rootbeerrain]

5171

so i picked up the 87 cargo and drove from austin to abq no problem, i was surprised to see and hadnt seen in the for sale pics that the radiator installed was for a 2wd...ill be rectifying the situation as im not totally confident its gonna survive and theres no way the shroud is gonna fit but in a jam this could get you home..

Any chance you'll be getting rid of the 2wd radiator? I'm in the market

[boogieman]

the gal has a 2wd we just picked up so im gonna keep it around sorry...

[wavegobbler]

I'm also trying to figure out an alternative radiator for a manual 4x4 van. I've had bad luck with my recores. One recore only lasted 2 years, I had to fix a hole that developed in a tank and noticed that the core was pink and corroding. Maybe the coastal air and salt flats in Baja wreaked it, but I doubt it. I had it recored again and got hosed by the shop, $700! I even delivered and picked up the radiator. So I have two recores and one tank repair for about 30,000 miles of driving. This obviously sucks!

What about this radiator? I measure my original outside dimensions to be 25"w x 12 3/4" H. This one is in the ballpark. I can tig weld aluminum but I don't have the confidence to weld the split in half core like they did in the modification on this thread. The modifications for this radiator might be relatively basic.
Heres the link: https://www.rywire.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RADIATOR%2DCUSTOM

[boogieman]

thats pretty cool! (no pun intended) i cant tell if the bungs are the same on all 4 corners, but that seems like a winner...not cheap though...ive been tempted to try a scirocco radiator which is about the right dimensions but usually a dual pass with the bungs on the same side...can be had on ebay for $95 delivered.

[wavegobbler]

The female thread holes are not the same. The upper left one should be on the right. The hose could be snaked over there. Thats a full 'S' curve and might be ok. If you flip it, you would have to snake the bottom hose, like the mod in the thread above. You would also have to snake the 5/16" hose.

Or the left port could be hole sawed out, moved to right side, below the smaller bung, welded. Old hole would need to be capped. Or plug left hole and weld new pipe, right side. You could do all the fit work and bring it to a shop to be welded.

The radiator does come with a nice double fan shroud. I think I need to assume that the old plastic tin will not fit and fans will need to be installed with any aluminum radiator. I like the simple clutch fan system and consider that a downside of this aluminum radiator.

I prefer the more generic mounting option on the Rywire radiator. It also does not have the fill neck like the Sirocco radiator. Both radiators would need to have the top hose snaked over or be modified. The Sirocco is Way cheaper. The Rywire is $475.

[wavegobbler]

Thanks for the Scirocco radiator suggestion, Boogieman. There are a couple that look pretty good.

Griffen has one with ports in the correct corners, just not the correct diameter.

Flex-A-lite has a fan/shroud set up for it. You can't tell from the picture, but I think the fan shroud has tabs for the 4 fastening spots on the radiator. The plastic only covers the fins, the tabs extend to the tanks. Flex a lite website has the details.

The Scirocco radiator is available on ebay for $125 with all ports on rt side. The ebay sellers don't go into details about the construction. They appear to be all aluminum and same as the summit Griffen one. You pay about $175 to get the outlet port on the bottom, left. Snaking the hose does not seem so bad.

Both options seem Way better than the Rywire one.

[boogieman]

yeah, snaking the top or bottom hose wouldnt be a big deal if one were to use electric fans..the scirocco rad with both inlet and outlet on one side are dual flow, meaning theres a block in the tank between the two so the coolant does a "U"..i considered knocking/driling /cutting out the block and mounting the spigot where we want...they also have two pegs that would make mounting the bottom easy..and fan mounts already welded..theres some that are wider than the others and i think the wider ones would fit and have more capacity..

[wavegobbler]

I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on this radiator/fan set up. It would be GREAT to get some feedback before spending a bunch of money.

As I see it, the actual cost of this modification is around $300. The total cost is around $800 but I'm subtracting out the cost going the recore route: Maybe $500.

I like the AFCO 80107N radiator because:
It not a super cheap one. There are 2" thick ones on ebay for $125. I would be paying an extra $220 for a 3" thick radiator that appears in the picture to be higher quality.
1 1/4" in and outlets. I would need to snake the lower hose across.

I like the Flex a lite fans because:
More cfm for less than the single fan AFCO set up. If one burns out, maybe the other might get you home. I was planing on using the flex a lite controller, maybe its better to be consistent with the electrical modification. Its a little cheaper than the AFCO fan (part #80107NFAN)

The total cost of the set up will be around $800. Thats less than I've spent on my other vans stock radiator. I've had to recore twice (bad luck probably) and fix a tank leak and its still a 30+ year old radiator. I have also had to pull the radiator 3 times for these repairs. I will have to make custom brackets to support the new radiator but fortunately I can do that myself, that would increase the cost for someone who needed to farm that work out.

A couple other things involved:
The van has a 5/16" diameter return(?) line. I was planning to fabricate a 5/16" nipple on a piece of 1 1/4", and splice that into the return line.
The flex a lite fan set up is designed to run for 25 seconds after shut down. If that is not enough to prevent heat soak, maybe it could be wired to battery +, instead of ignition +. In that case, the fans on/off would be governed by the programmed shut off temperature. Depending on the water temperature, maybe they would run longer and help with heat soak?

This a lot of money and work! Any critique would be MUCH appreciated!

[boogieman]

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F39 0967312535

if youre gonna spend that much, maybe consider this one, i believe this is the one member vanco used on his turbo rig..you can search for the thread..i think it just needed some.necking down of the spigots and he mentions the factory shroud could probably be adapted...

[wavegobbler]

Thanks for the response!

The AFCO is a 3" thick radiator, that Griffin is 2". I'm hoping that a 3" would have improved cooling ability.

[VanCo]

When I bought the Griffin radiator I saw that AFCO too. I chose the Griffin because it had a better chance of fitting. It fits nice and I'm glad I went with it. Particularly because the bottom hose nipple is on the correct side. As far as cooling goes, it's great. 100+ temps fully loaded on the freeway is no problem.

The small hose you referred to may be an air purge hose? I plugged mine. With it plugged I just spent extra time getting the air out of the system. It's been fine for a year now.

I have run a few electric fan setups on the factory radiator(single 14, single 10, dual 10, shrouds and no shrouds), but none have been as good as the factory fan and shroud. I'm currently fabricating an angled shroud to fit a flex a lite syclone 16" 2,500 cfm electric. If it doesn't work I'll run the factory fan and shroud. The turbo adds a lot more stress to the cooling system.

[wavegobbler]

Thanks for sharing your modification experience, Vanco. I'm going run my experiment. Its going to be a 3" thick radiator with two 8" shrouded fans, 1600cfm. We will see it the extra 1" makes much difference. I'll cap off the small return line like you did.

The stock cooling system on my other van works great (after a complete rebuild). I just want a new radiator that won't leak and a fan to fight the heat soak issue. I'm hoping to get similar cooling ability, a more reliable radiator and fans to clear the engine compartment of excessive heat after shout down.

[VanCo]

Thanks for sharing your modification experience, Vanco. I'm going run my experiment. Its going to be a 3" thick radiator with two 8" shrouded fans, 1600cfm. We will see it the extra 1" makes much difference. I'll cap off the small return line like you did.

The stock cooling system on my other van works great (after a complete rebuild). I just want a new radiator that won't leak and a fan to fight the heat soak issue. I'm hoping to get similar cooling ability, a more reliable radiator and fans to clear the engine compartment of excessive heat after shout down.

Plus there is a noticable power difference running an electric fan.

[Carbonized]

I'm currently fabricating an angled shroud to fit a flex a lite syclone 16" 2,500 cfm electric. If it doesn't work I'll run the factory fan and shroud. The turbo adds a lot more stress to the cooling system.

I was mentioning (on another thread) doing just that with the stock shroud and ether a Flex-a-lite 118 or a Derale 17" 2 speed 16917 ( at 16-7/8 OD it fits right in) but with a draw of around 20 amps Tim suggested I upgrade the alternator.
Vanco, with your turbo rig I suspect you already did, right? And what do you mean by "an angled shroud"? tilted like the 2wd radiator?
Keep us informed your stuff is really inspiring!

[VanCo]

I was mentioning (on another thread) doing just that with the stock shroud and ether a Flex-a-lite 118 or a Derale 17" 2 speed 16917 ( at 16-7/8 OD it fits right in) but with a draw of around 20 amps Tim suggested I upgrade the alternator.
Vanco, with your turbo rig I suspect you already did, right? And what do you mean by "an angled shroud"? tilted like the 2wd radiator?
Keep us informed your stuff is really inspiring!

I upgraded to a GM CS130D, it peaks around 105 amps. I chose this style because it is easily upgraded to the high output 145 amp GM AD244. Plus they are $18 a piece at my local pick and pull, and there are tons of them. I run a 4 guage cable from the alternator to a 150 amp fuse to the battery.

For the fan, I spent some time trying to make the factory shroud work with a bigger electric fan, and there just wasn't enough room. I'm making a shroud that is close to the bottom of the radiator, and angles back toward the motor on top. This will allow the bigger electric fan, and pull all the air through the radiator. With the fan basically blowing down, I'm not sure if that will be bad for venting the engine compartment. I guess I'll see. I was thinking of running a 10 inch fan that just vents the engine compartment that comes on with the cooling fan.

[Carbonized]

I was thinking of running a 10 inch fan that just vents the engine compartment that comes on with the cooling fan.

For that I was thinking of using an inline extracting fan, they are used in the bilges of power boats to clear out any flammable gases before firing the engine, they are sealed, explosion proof, usually fairly high volume for the size and can be installed remotely anywhere under the van and flex ducted. Run that a few minute after shut down against heat soak or like you are thinking, in tandem with the fan if you have enough electrical power.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31r%2BQKaHRaL._SY450_.jpg
it's not 1000's of cfm but if the target is the hot air bubble seating at the top of the engine it may do.

[VanCo]

Thanks for sharing your modification experience, Vanco. I'm going run my experiment. Its going to be a 3" thick radiator with two 8" shrouded fans, 1600cfm. We will see it the extra 1" makes much difference. I'll cap off the small return line like you did.

The stock cooling system on my other van works great (after a complete rebuild). I just want a new radiator that won't leak and a fan to fight the heat soak issue. I'm hoping to get similar cooling ability, a more reliable radiator and fans to clear the engine compartment of excessive heat after shout down.

According to the descriptions, both radiators have two, one inch cores. The AFCO radiator has a core height of 18" and width of 12.5". The Griffin is 18" x 13". The core area is what cools the fluid. The two radiators are nearly the same. In fact, I measured my end tanks and they are three inches.

Also, I really don't think that 1,600 cfm is enough to keep it cool in extremes. Just my opinion based on my experience, in response to your request for critique.

[wavegobbler]

Thanks for the input, Vanco. Its interesting that the Griffin radiator is 3" wide, sounds like both Griffen and AFCO radiators have the same specs. Maybe Flex-a-lite designed a good schroud to maximize their 8" fans? I'm going to have to back out of the modification if I can't get results similar to the stock set up. The van getting the AFCO is a 4x4 manual, my current rig is a 4x4 automatic. The automatic's temperature limitations, on my rig, are all about the transmission. It heats up way before the engine. All my offroad trips involve stops to let the transmission chill, in spite of after-market modifications.

Carbonized marine bilge blower idea seems like a good one. I've been thinking about removing the air conditioning components in the compartment under the passenger seat and trying to fit a blower and possibly a second battery there. Its opposite the fuel rail but at least theres some space.

[VanCo]

That fan setup may work, I'm not certain (I would like to try it myself, if it wasn't for the price). The shroud design makes a huge difference.

Since the van radiator doesn't get a lot of flow at highway speeds you may want to consider some of the air flow upgrades that have been discussed, in addition to the radiator and fan.

I have removed all AC components. I moved my primary battery to the passenger seat compartment (so that I could make an airbox where the battery originally went). It fits nice, but I didn't allow for anything else going in there when I designed it. Plus with the modifications for the 30" tires there isn't as much space anyway.

With the AC compressor removed there is a lot of room on that side if the engine bay. I was thinking of mounting a fan or bilge fan there and possibly using ducting.

[bikerjosh]

Thanks for sharing your modification experience, Vanco. I'm going run my experiment. Its going to be a 3" thick radiator with two 8" shrouded fans, 1600cfm. We will see it the extra 1" makes much difference. I'll cap off the small return line like you did.

The stock cooling system on my other van works great (after a complete rebuild). I just want a new radiator that won't leak and a fan to fight the heat soak issue. I'm hoping to get similar cooling ability, a more reliable radiator and fans to clear the engine compartment of excessive heat after shout down.

Looking forward to seeing your results. Thanks for posting.

[VanCo]

I finally got around to fabricating a fan shroud for my 2,500 CFM 16" Flex A Lite electric fan to fit my Griffin radiator.

Here is the summarized parts list for the entire radiator and fan project:

Radiator: Griffin 2-26185-H
Upper radiator hose: Dayco/Hose (Upper) Item# 81061
Lower radiator hose: Gates 25532
Fan: Flex-A-Lite Syclone 398 2,500 CFM
Gauge: CSR Digital Temperature Gauges/Controllers 1225 (love it)
Aluminum: various
Body seam sealer: Dynatron Seam Sealer

Installed Griffin radiator (after two years):

6639

Here is the completed shroud:

6640

6641

6642

Installed:

6643

6644

CSR gauge and fan controller:

6645

6646

I will be the first to admit it isn't pretty, but it sure does flow some CFM's through the radiator.

To make the radiator fit I reworked the existing lower mounts. Not a lot of fabrication here. For the top mount I welded a mounting tab to the radiator. The hose outlet is bigger for the lower hose. To make it work I got a hose that fit the larger radiator port and adapted the hose to the engine (smaller) port. To do this I used a 3 inch long piece of radiator hose that was the correct size for the engine port, and slid the larger hose over it and clamped it down. It has held up fine for over two years. Oh, and I just capped the return/bypass hose that goes from the radiator cap area to the radiator. I have had no issues in doing that.

For the shroud I started with an aluminum frame. I framed out the rectangle for the radiator, and I framed out the circle for the fan. I then mounted the rectangle to the radiator using welded aluminum tabs. With it mounted I was able to get an idea of where the circle frame needed to be for clearance. Once I determined that, I used aluminum bar to connect the rectangle frame to the circle frame in the position it needed to be. With the frame complete I basically skinned it with .020 aluminum sheet. I used rivets to attach the sheet to the frame. There were some gaps and such that I filled with body seam sealer.

This is a very brief overview. If you have questions just let me know.

[spacecruisers]

wavegobbler, im very interested in your dual 8" fan setup. keep me posted on the process and how its working (and if the CFM's keep it cool enough). I have a newly re-cored stock 4wd radiator and im dying to get an electric fan setup that works. I've been talking with VanCo and his setup is awesome but he also has big cooling demands due to the turbo. im hoping the integrated shroud on the fan you linked will also save me some major artistic exertion (& time) expressed by VanCo :LOL2:

[boogieman]

VanCo thats pretty awesome, you have a sweet rig! that radiator fits nicely in there and i like that it has the mounts for a shroud and/or fan set up. seems like an easy install...

you ran this radiator pre and post turbo correct? didnt this radiator work fine with no shroud and factory fan normally aspirated?

[VanCo]

you ran this radiator pre and post turbo correct? didnt this radiator work fine with no shroud and factory fan normally aspirated?


Yeah, I ran this radiator and the stock fan without a shroud NA for a few months in the summer. It worked fine, but I had the factory shroud laying around and decided to adapt it.

To make the factory shroud work with the factory fan and Griffin radiator you need too trim a bit of the shroud, drill some holes, and adapt some L brackets.

I have never, turbo or NA, had any issues with cooling running the Griffin radiator with the stock fan and stock shroud.

I made the switch to electric for a few reasons. I like the free horsepower, I like that the engine speed doesn't tank when shifting (better for boost and hills), it sounds much better, I can keep much more precise control of the temperature, and I like to do things differently.

[wavegobbler]

That is Very cool, VanCo! Its good to know that a 16" fan can fit. It looks to me like that fan would be Much more effective than the two eights (beyond just the cfm rating). The two eights both have mini fan blades/ large motors. That thing is like a windmill in comparison. Epic modification! I will check in when the AFCO radiator and Flex-a-lite fan shroud set up has been product tested.

[Carbonized]

:thmbup::thmbup::thmbup::thmbup: awesome work. Thanks to these pics, I have the answer to one of my question: can a big electric fan be centered to the radiator therefore optimizing air flow over the whole core area and still fit under the center hump between the seats?
I wonder how many CFM is the clutch fan pulling? Can't be anywhere close to 2500; Right?

[VanCo]

I wonder how many CFM is the clutch fan pulling? Can't be anywhere close to 2500; Right?

It's my understanding that when fully engaged clutch fans similar to the vans can pull 5000 plus CFM. Not sure if you have had the van super hot at 2500 rpm with the seat up and felt how much air is moved, but it's a lot.

Since the engine moves under load the stock shroud doesn't have a tight tolerance around the fan. This causes an inefficiency. Hence the overkill on the CFM. That's also why it is super important to have a good shroud with an electric fan. To make up for the lower CFM by being more efficient.

So far this radiator, shroud, and fan combo is better than any combo I've tried. Once the fan turns on at 198 it turns off at 190 within 8 seconds (switch set to 195). It will then take about 5 minutes for the fan to come back on. That's idling in a 70 degree garage (40 outside not a good test temp). The summer will be the ultimate test.

This is all based on my research and experience. If I'm wrong on anything, please correct me.

[timsrv]

It's my understanding that when fully engaged clutch fans similar to the vans can pull 5000 plus CFM. Not sure if you have had the van super hot at 2500 rpm with the seat up and felt how much air is moved, but it's a lot.

Since the engine moves under load the stock shroud doesn't have a tight tolerance around the fan. This causes an inefficiency. Hence the overkill on the CFM. That's also why it is super important to have a good shroud with an electric fan. To make up for the lower CFM by being more efficient.

So far this radiator, shroud, and fan combo is better than any combo I've tried. Once the fan turns on at 198 it turns off at 190 within 8 seconds (switch set to 195). It will then take about 5 minutes for the fan to come back on. That's idling in a 70 degree garage (40 outside not a good test temp). The summer will be the ultimate test.

This is all based on my research and experience. If I'm wrong on anything, please correct me.

Vanco, all what you just said sounds correct (based on years of experience in the automotive industry). I have yet to see an electric fan able to move more air than a fully engaged clutch fan @ high engine RPM's (would draw too many amps and rob too much power). Efficiency can be dialed in though and the big advantage is they can run @ full output while engine is at rest. It will be interesting to hear how it does in the summer, please keep us in the loop. Tim

[Carbonized]

I was reading this http://www8.basf.us//PLASTICSWEB/displayanyfile?id=0901a5e180004891 trying to convince myself to go electric. Mind bending! The importance of the shroud, how crucial is "tip leak" to fan efficiency, the hub size, the blades shape and ratio, horse power vs blade width etc... everything is in there about fans and shrouds! If you dont mind a bit of science :wnk:. It is like candy to me.
VanCo, according to this paper, your set up should be a big improvement on the mechanical system in term of efficiency, it is hard to believe that our 14-1/2" fan with a hub of 6-1/2" stubby 4" long blades (5 only), 1" gap around the tips, could beat it, even a 2500 RPM .

[timsrv]

Size and pitch of the blades + RPM determines how much cfm. Blades on electric are small in comparison. It would take a huge electric motor to spin a stock engine driven fan blade @ 3,000 rpm. Electric does have advantages though and modern ones are pretty effective for what they do vs amps they pull.

[VanCo]

It would take a huge electric motor to spin a stock engine driven fan blade @ 3,000 rpm.

I agree.

It has been proven (dyno testing) that mechanical fans can use up to 30 engine horsepower to spin. I am guessing (butt dyno) that the van's mechanical fan uses around 10 horsepower. My 16" electric has a motor rated at 12 volts and 17 amps. That calculates to .3 (generous) horsepower.

They are both doing the same job, moving air (yes there are a number of aerodynamic, and thermodynamic properties involved). For simplicity, if one is using 10 horsepower and the other .3, even factoring in gross inefficiencies you would have to conclude that the one drawing 33 times the horsepower is providing more airflow.

This power difference is why it is important to make an electric fan as efficient as possible (much more efficient than the mechanical fan) in addition to flowing a high CFM of air.

[Carbonized]

Another plus for electric set up, particularly Tim's, is the easier access to the front of the engine for belt change, tensioners adjustment, leak check etc...., also the combo shroud/fan has to be a piece of cake to remove/ install VS. the 2 pcs shroud + fan + clutch. No?

[VanCo]

Yeah, you get much better access to the front of the engine when running an electric fan. I have run fans close to the radiator and now shrouded a bit away and all combinations give improved access over the factory set up. All have been easier to remove too.

Also a benefit, you do gain a couple MPG's going to electric.

With all the benefits, if my newest setup can't cool properly on a grade, in heat, fully loaded, I'm going back to the stock fan.

[Carbonized]

Also a benefit, you do gain a couple MPG's going to electric.

Anther not negligible selling point


With all the benefits, if my newest setup can't cool properly on a grade, in heat, fully loaded, I'm going back to the stock fan.
I hear you. I don't know anybody else here, beside Tim with his admittedly over loaded rig, who has truly put to the test as many different set ups . Or though with a turbo and no intercooler you are setting the bar pretty high :lol:. Then if it works well for you, it should be easy-peasy on our NA motors :LOL2:

[trestlehed]

I have had great results with my electric fans/custom stainless steel fan shroud.
But it's VERY important to make sure that all other parts of your cooling system are in good working order.
I had the following replaced: HG, the famous "Yuba City Ability Radiator" high efficiency re-core, new coolant overflow head (coolant fill) and hose, hose of death and custom aluminum HOD outlet plate...

Again, super-special thanks to Timsrv for all his knowledge and input on this (see link below).
This may be old news for some, but for newer members here is a link to my electric fan mod:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mistershmi http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28787#post28787)
<trestlehed, did you ever get an electric fan set up and dialed in?>


Yes! It's all set-up as written in this thread. One key thing to remember is that the success of my mod
was founded on the 4 row high efficiency recore from Yuba City, CA. Then add the dual electric cooling fans, a custom stainless steel radiator shroud, adjustable relays and... Xanadu! (I prefer the Exit Stage Left double live album version). :lol:

If you cheap-out/cut corners on any part of the cooling system, prepare for disappointment.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?491-Electric-fans-and-thermostats

[Ace MM]

2nd fan location:
I need to add a fan for additional cooling when off road.
No issues on the road, loaded, uphills.
Up hills in 4wd, going slow, causes the temp to rise and only drop very slowly once flat.

I don't have space in front to cover the entire radiator, so where would be the most effective location for a small elect fan? Inlet side? Outlet side? Center? High? Low?

[Carbonized]

Radiator fans are more efficient as puller than pushers according to manufacturers. Most of them recommend the fan to be installed on the "engine side" I do not know how the fan is setup on the diesel engine but here is a pictures of an assist fan between the clutch fan and rad.

6656

Hope that help

[timsrv]

Regarding the picture above, I should point out this fan does very little in the way of "assisting". It works very well as an engine bay ventilator (prevents heat soak issues). I have it set on a "count-down" timer to run 15 minutes after the van is shut-off. I have tried running it on hot days when I get stuck in heavy traffic (low engine rpm) with my AC on. Unfortunately, in that situation the van still gets too hot (both fans together don't do enough). The only way to keep the van at a reasonable temp is to either shut off the AC or put the van in neutral and hold engine rpm @ ~ 2,500 (when stopped or coasting). If/when I do that the factory clutch fan effectively brings the temp down (moves a lot of air), but that electric fan (mounted in that way) will not. BTW, I do not run this set-up without a shroud (just had it off for the picture). I use an OE shroud and it fits inside nicely. Tim

[VanCo]

Following up on my 16" electric fan and shroud install. I went on a camping trip to the San Rafael Swell in the Utah desert recently. The trip is about 350 miles round trip, with a lot of up and down canyon driving. The temp was in the low 80's. I had about 1k pounds of people and gear. 65 to 80mph speeds.

The fan did well, as well as it can really. It isn't exactly up to my standard though. It didn't get any hotter than the factory fan, but I feel like it will when it gets hotter. It may be fine in a naturally aspirated van.

The issue is air flow at speed. Electric fans count on air flow through the radiator at high speeds. This minimizes the fan cycling while on the freeway and such. This fan ran nearly constantly at high speed. That means any increase in ambient temperature, there will be an increase in engine temp.

To get the fan to stop running at its max, I need more air flow through the radiator. I plan to make a sheet metal tunnel from the front grill slots, to the radiator. I think I will also make a scoop under the bumper. I would just make a scoop by the radiator, but I'm thinking when the van breaks wind (tee hee) it creates too much turbulence to effectively scoop air.

[wavegobbler]

The AFCO Scirocco radiator and Flex-A-Lite Sirocco 365 fans/schroud fit in the Van. I removed a bracket, upper passenger side, front, that was in the way. All air conditioning parts are also removed. There is around 3/4" clearance around the radiator on all sides. The lower hose seems ok but having the port on the correct side would be nice.

I haven't done any real product testing. This project van still has a ways to go. I will give more details about the mounting brackets if it works well.

Some initial observations:
The fans are Loud, and seem powerful. They aggressively pin a dollar bill to the front of the radiator.
I wired the Fans to the battery instead of the ignition, they run for around 12 minutes after the car is shout off. The thermostat controlling the fan on/off is in the fill neck, the port in front of the radiator cap.
The original clutch fan can still fit. Maybe, in an electric fan failure, I could limp home with it. The electric fan blades pop off easily leaving some access for the clutch fan. I think the clutch fan will fit in the spare tire with a little blade grinding.

[timsrv]

Very nice :thmbup:

[Carbonized]

Just something that came to my attention when you mentioned 12 minutes running after shut down. would it be worthwhile to have an accessory electric pump running the fluid thru the engine and radiator as well? After all, the fans are only cooling static fluid in the radiator, and it take a much longer time to cool the fluid around the probe at the filler neck. I see on the pictures that you kept the originale size alternator, what size batterie are you running? How many Amps are the fans drawing?
Just picking brains up before diving into my own project :whistle:

And yes very nice bracketry work! Clean!

[originalkwyjibo]

It sure looks like changing an alternator would be a whole lot easier.

[timsrv]

Lol, that was my concern too. Just a good rule of thumb for anybody running electric fans to upgrade the alternator. If you have a factory Denso or Denso rebuilt (actually rebuilt by Denso), then I would consider it barely adequate. I would never recommend running one of those elcheapo rebuilds or "lifetime" rebuilds sold at the discount auto parts stores as they will not hold up. Performing the Delco-Remy CS-144 alternator upgrade (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?478-Upgrading-the-alternator) would be a good idea........especially if those fans pull more than 8 amps. Tim

PS: It doesn't have to be a fancy custom alternator like mine, just find one with the similar housing in a junk yard and use that. That alternator was popular on the older GM products. If you pull one from a junk yard, probably a good idea to put new brushes in it. Tim

[Carbonized]

Researching the Flex A Lite website for a 16" fan I came about this nugget:

"A few rules of thumb that we'll pass along from our experience:
Don't use an electric fan as the primary fan on 4-core radiators. It overworks the fan to try to draw air through these extremely restrictive radiators."

It reminded me of this old timer at my radiator shop telling me : It's all about air flow through. Under highway or racing condition (high airflow) 4 row are ok, in the city or off-road (low airflow) not so good. That's why they stopped using 4rows core in cooling challenged vehicles like the van long ago.
Anyway plowing along in my project of "single shrouded electric fan on 4WD radiator" . I just got another 4WD radiator to use as a prop in my 2WD. I'm ordering the Flex A Lite 398 16"Syclone and related control bits, I will upgrade the alternator to the Delco-Remy CS144, wire the fan to the batterie so it keep running after shut down to prevent heat soak, and I want to run a aux. electric water pump (only after shut down) to keep running coolant through the radiator while the fan is running. I will need some help for this part as I am a bit of a "sparky" when it come to electrical. Any idea on what pump and how to plumb and wire it ? Not decided on a temp gage or alarms yet.

[timsrv]

I personally would not consider an electric water pump to be worth the effort. You would only get circulation through the block while the thermostat was open anyhow. If you rigged one up to your heater hose, it could be made to circulate after, but the heat lever would need to be left in the "hot" position for it to work (unless you have rigged up an external heater core like THIS (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2759-Cooling-system-Mods&p=16026#post16026)). Tim

[ncbrock]

I have it set on a "count-down" timer to run 15 minutes after the van is shut-off.

This is starting to interest me greatly now that temps are averaging above the 80s. I notice a huge temperature gain in the cabin after I let the van sit after driving.

[VanCo]

16 inch electric fan update. (I am highly critical)

These vans do not have enough air flow at speed to properly support an electric fan. Sure, it can be done, but it isn't as good as the stock fan and shroud.

I even added an auxiliary cooling heater core, oil cooler, and a massive under body air scoop. The air flow just isn't there to keep the fan off at highway speeds. For me, running a turbo and heavy loads, cooling is important.

The decrease in aerodynamics caused by the necessary air scoop would most certainly offset any horsepower gain from going electric.

With the stock fan I am able to drive 55-65 mph, 800 pounds inside, 1200 pound trailer up a 6% grade for 5 miles in 100 degree weather, and maintain 205 degrees at the hottest (that was all she had, all 7psi of boost and methanol).

When I ran a lighter load (800 pounds inside, no trailer) same ambient temperature and stretch of road with the electric fan it overheated, and I had to go 15mph flashers on.

In conclusion, sure electric fans can work, but if you want brute cooling power, go with a mechanical fan.

[wavegobbler]

Thanks for all the R&D Vanco.
I have 600 miles on my set up, the flex-a-lite 365 scirocco fans. Driving 20 miles or less and no real load.
The fans keep the engine slightly cooler than my stock van but they seem to be running full blast, almost all the time. I have been worried about what they will do under a real test.

I don't think they turn off on typical hwy driving. Even if my radiator did get good air flow, the shroud and fans would block most air from passing through. I don't think the set up will work without the fans running. The fans do shut down during/after a down hill at least.

I'm planning a Death Valley trip in November, I've done the same route twice with a stock van. My stock van heats up when: In 4wd, going slow up a long grade. I think the fans will help this but theres lots of other road conditions, mainly, highway mountain passes. I'll see how it holds up.

[Duke]

I second the thanks for the R&D and reporting it back. I have been considering electric fans to help get a bit more power and economy from my diesel van, but I think I will take that off of my to do list for now.

Vanco, you said that you were running an auxiliary cooling heater core, what kind of difference did this make in keeping your van cool? I'm thinking of modifying an old radiator that I have laying around to do this exact thing and I'm wondering if it would be worth the time and effort.

[VanCo]

All of my research was done at highway speeds. That said, the auxiliary cooling heater core mounted just behind the tiny grill provides about 5 degrees (fahrenheit) extra cooling, and the oil cooler provides about 5 degrees. The underbody scoop helped the most with 10 degrees extra cooling.

My auxiliary temperature gauge probe is purposefully in the hottest port on the head (EGR VSV). Prior to all of the upgrades with the stock fan and shroud, aluminum radiator, no load, flat highway cruising my auxiliary temp gauge would show 212-215, and my factory gauge would be a hair under half. With the same fan and radiator setup, added heater core, oil cooler, and scoop, the temperature is now 191-195, and my factory gauge sits at one quarter.

My auxillary temp gauge numbers will be different than others. There is up to a 20 degree difference in reading between the various ports on the head and filler neck. What's important is the temp change.

[Flecker]

So I ran across this CSF radiator, Model 987.

Heres the dimensions, and says it fits Toy Vans.



CSF RADIATOR, ALL METAL, 3-ROW -- 21.69 x 13.69 x 2.06 in. coresize, 13.56 x 2.19 in. tank inlet/outlet size, 1.38 in. top righthose fittings, 1.38 in. bottom left hose fittings, 8.88 in.transmission oil cooler size; Engineered to the highestspecifications; No need to move fittings, drill additional holes,or stretch hoses to fit properly because it will fit exactly thesame as with the original manufacturer's parts.Material:
Metal core


Is this the unicorn that may fit in the 4wd vans?

Linkage:

https://autoplicity.com/2914982-wagon-radiator


Says it's 13.56" tall. Mounts appear correct for the 4wd also. Anyone seen this?

[llamavan]

CSF 987 is for the the 2WD 4Y / 2nd gen (86-89).

Gwen

[Flecker]

CSF 987 is for the the 2WD 4Y / 2nd gen (86-89).

Gwen


Wishful thinking I guess...

Thanks Gwen.

[scotty]

I had to pull my radiator out, to get an impact gun in there to remove the power steering pulley nut, and decided to take it to a custom radiator shop and ask about having it re-cored. I works ok, and I had it rodded-out a few years ago, but I was going to get the AC working soon and figured it would help to have the radiator working as efficiently as possible.

Before I could even get to the counter and old-timer said "that's from a toyota van, 4wd" and told me that he knew why I was there, and that it wasn't going to help to re-core the radiator. He said that the 4wd van already had a 3-row core, and that it makes sense to re-core the 2wd van radiators, because they came with a 2-row. He said that a 4-row wasn't going to be worth the effort and would have limited effect, as someone in here already said, by the time the coolant goes over the 4th row the coolant is already hot and wouldn't cool any more, and that I'd be better off adding a thermostat controlled pusher fan on the front of the radiator. So, that's what I'm going to do. I'm sure some of this info is redundant, but I just thought I would share this opinion by a guy who's seen and done it all.