Question for owners of supercharged Previa: Supercharger Oil?

[SamPrevia]

Hello all,

I just bought a 1997 Previa S/C with 107,000 miles on it. I have 2 questions for members who have maintained and serviced their supercharger unit.

1) Have you used NON-Toyota oil? GM? Ford? I'd rather not spend $50 for 50ml of oil from Toyota.
2) I have located the dipstick, but I have not found the drain plug. Does it exist? Where is it? Pictures?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sam

[TheMAN]

$50 for 107000 miles...
That's not even 4 millionth of a cent a mile, if my math is right

or more understandably, that's less than $3 a year

why nickel and dime this when you can chance blowing it up with the wrong stuff? Then you're out hundreds if not thousands to replace it

[SamPrevia]

I am not chancing anything. I'm asking for info from owners who actually have experience with the Previa supercharger oil. Logic tells me this is just a roots type supercharger. Toyota can and is selling this oil at $1/ml because of ignorance which results in perpetual fear.

Sorry, your math is also incorrect, by a factor of more than 10,000!

4 millionth of a cent = 0.000004 cents (5 zeros after the decimal point)

50 x 100 / 107000 = 0.047 cents / mile

[timsrv]

There's a guy on-line who sells Klubersynth oil for Ogura TX superchargers @ $36 per liter (that's 20 x the volume of a 50 milliliter bottle). If purchased in the 50 milliliter bottles (that Toyota sells for $50 each), this same volume would be $1,000.00. I believe this is the same stuff sold by Toyota. Here's a quote from his website:

"Ogura Clutch is the manufacturer for the Toyota SC12 and SC14 superchargers.
Aside from the housing casting the SC12 and SC14 are virtually identical to the TX12 and TX15



This is the reccomended oil for the Ogura TX series chargers.

In conversations with Ogura clutch it was brought to my attention that the type of oil you use is very important. Using the wrong oil can shorten life due to added gear and bearing wear. The wrong oil can react with various metals in the gear box and cause rapid erosion. It can also react with the seals and cause them to break down and fail much more quickly."

Here's a link: http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/klubersynth-oil-ogura-tx-superchargers-1-liter

[SamPrevia]

Thank you timsrv.

His claim sounds legitimate. Has anyone tried his oil? Please respond if you have.

[timsrv]

FYI, apples to apples, the Klubersynth oil, when purchased through that guy (above), works out to $1.80 per each 50 ML bottle :lol:. Toyota's price reflects the labor of their executives. At board meetings they spend their time pouring 1 liter bottles into (20) 50 ML bottles :rol:. Needless to say, their executives are very well paid. :LOL2:

[wil13577]

Normally, I agree with the only use Toyota fluids statement. I use Toyota antifreeze, Toyota transmission fluid, Toyota oil filters, etc. We have owned our 1997 Previa since Feb 2003. For the first few years, I took the Previa to the dealer for engine oil changes. The dealer would send me coupons for oil changes for little more than I could do it myself. Then around 2008, I decided to change the engine oil myself. After changing the engine oil, I checked fluid levels. When I checked the supercharger, the oil level was below the dipstick. This made me wonder if the dealer had been checking the supercharger oil level when doing oil changes even though they claim they check and top off all fluid levels when doing the oil changes. At that time, I drained and refilled with Toyota supercharger oil. The next time I changed my oil (I change oil at 3750 miles), I checked the supercharger oil level, and it was below the dipstick. I figured the supercharger was on its way out. Rather than buy Toyota supercharger oil, I started using GM supercharger oil. Every time since, the supercharger oil is below the dipstick when I change the engine oil. I top it off. After going through four 4 oz. bottles of GM supercharger oil, I quite putting in supercharger oil and started putting in 0W-20 or 0W-30 motor oil. I don't remember the weight because as of the last oil change, I have gone through a quart of motor oil and no longer have the container, but the s/c is still spinning. That being said, if the supercharger was not consuming oil at the rate mine is, I would likely have continued to top off with Toyota supercharger oil, but, I wanted to share my experience with alternatives.

BTW, the drain plug is on the rear of the supercharger. Get a new crush washer if you drain it.

[SamPrevia]

BTW, the drain plug is on the rear of the supercharger.

Thanks. I will try to find the drain plug again. What do you mean by rear? Shouldn't it be bottom?
Also, what is the approximate oil capacity of the supercharger? Is it 1300ml? I thought I read that somewhere but could not find the link.

timsrv: I agree, Toyota's supercharger oil price is ridiculous.

[wil13577]

Re: drain plug location: The drain plug is on the end of the supercharger facing the rear of the vehicle on the bottom center. If one crawls under the vehicle just aft of the front wheel from the driver's side and looks towards the front of the van, one can see the plug slightly behind the front axle. You don't actually need to crawl under, the drain plug can be seen be looking up and towards the front of the van from behind the left front wheel. (At least on my '97 one can.)

Re: approximate oil capacity of the supercharger? 130 ml (Approximately 30 ml = 1 oz)

[SamPrevia]

Thank you wil13577.

Found it, right where you said it would be. It's a 17mm plug. Drained it and filled it up with AC Delco Supercharger Oil, 130ml.

Draining is easy. Refilling is a pain in the neck. Checking the oil level is a waste of time. The new oil is colorless, there is simply no way to tell, especially when you are under the van working upward. So I just filled it to the top.

[sited faith]

I'm in the same place as WIL. The seals in my SC have been shot for some time. For the last 150k or so I crawl underneath every other week and put in about 2.5 oz of 10-40W motor oil. Originally, I used 10-50w synthetic. Then I tried to add some seal conditioner. Then viscosity enhancer. Nothing changed the usage rate. Still runs like a top, though. I bought a used SC on eBay, but it seems to be quite the chore to change it out. So I just keep refilling, waiting for it to fail. I don't know where the leaking-by oil is going, but I hope it is just lubing my top end. Still passes CA smog every other year. Lots of power, 25 mpg highway, 22 mpg mixed.

mike h
'97 DX, 330k miles -- never been to the shop!

[SamPrevia]

..., 25 mpg highway, 22 mpg mixed.

mike h
'97 DX, 330k miles -- never been to the shop!

Very impressive gas mileage mike! What speed do you do on the highway?

My best is 24mpg highway at 70mph on flat road. 97 DX, 107Kmiles.

[sited faith]

Well, I drive it like my grandmother stole it. :-) I keep up with traffic and very rarely find the need to achieve zero throttling loss. Smooth is my goal and I try avoid braking. I'm not a hypermiler, but I will confess to putting it in neutral and coasting downhill, on occasion. On the freeway I generally go just above 70mph. I have seen 28 mpg on a tank, but that was an A to B trip, mostly downhill. I have a Scangage II and I keep an eye on it. It has helped me drive more efficiently, especially on hills. Note that the Scangage is extremely precise since you can calibrate the distance (via GPS, a one time affair) and input the gas pumped on every fill up. It calculates how much gas I will need within .1 gal every time. One interesting thing I discovered is that pedal control throttle is more efficient than cruise control. I think that is because one tends to let the car slow on small inclines, but the cruise does not. Another thing I did was to take off the crossbars from the factory rack. I run stock sized T rated tires, instead of H, which I think also makes a difference. I do my own alignments which helps my 65k mile warranty tires last beyond 100K miles so I'm not wasting energy scrubbing off my tire surfaces.

This is my second Previa. I drove a '93 DX 2wd for 6 years before the last 7 years with the '97. The '93 got similar mileage. Previas are in my blood.

mike h. '97 DX 2wd

[TheMAN]

coasting downhill in neutral is far worse than coasting downhill in gear... coasting downhill in neutral is no different than idling your engine in traffic, whereas coasting downhill in gear, the ECU shuts off the fuel injectors until around 1500rpm on most cars

Take most of what you learned from saving gas in a carburetted engine and throw them out the window, because fuel injection is much different... if you want better gas mileage, STAY IN GEAR!

[sited faith]

MAN. You may be correct about the fuel injectors, but the Scangage does not lie. You are not taking into account engine braking. Freewheeling will always be more efficient.

[SamPrevia]

mike: Does your Scangage display the engine RPM? If so, can you tell me the engine RPM at 70mph? Thanks.

Shutting off the injectors does NOT necessarily result in energy saving. The engine is still running, but it is now running on the energy provided by the car momentum. When that momentum energy is not consumed by the engine, the car would coast at a faster speed and thus covering a longer distance.

I had a 1986 Corolla, NO power steering, NO power brake, manual transmission. I coasted with the engine OFF, ignition ON. I just popped the clutch with the transmission in 5th to bring the engine back to life. NOT recommended for safety reasons, but it sure was fun and the gas saving is indisputable.

[TheMAN]

shutting off the engine will always be more efficient
engine efficiency will always be better at 2000-3000rpm compared to 800rpm, therefore fuel consumption differences between them will be better than at 800rpm

[sited faith]

Sam. The Scangage shows 4 real time values simultaneously from amongst any parameter the OBDII offers and its own calculated values. I typically view avg MPG, instantaneous MPG, RPM, and a miscellaneous one. I rotate that last one to get a feel for what it should read while everything is tip top so that if things should go south, I might get a clue from the readings. I look at fuel trims, water temperature, TPS, advance, etc. At 70 she's turning a tad over 2400 RPM. The value bounces around as is typical with a digital gage. Analog would be better.

mike

[SamPrevia]

Thanks mike. 2400RPM at 70mph is excellent for the small 2.4L engine. Great!

I'm guessing around 3000RPM for your normally aspirated 93 Previa, right?

[peterbmetcalf]

Thanks mike. 2400RPM at 70mph is excellent for the small 2.4L engine. Great!

I'm guessing around 3000RPM for your normally aspirated 93 Previa, right?

On my '91 AWD 5 speed I'm about 3400 rpm at 70 mph. I coast frequently in city as well, and get about 23 mpg combined. I'm going to look for an analog scan gauge however.

[bernard 95,96]

same as wil. Everytime i change oil, i check the supercharger fluid and its just below the dipstick, so i add 60cc of castrol syntech 5w50 synthetic oil. sc is working great. oil is not leaking, so must be getting past seals and getting burned, to a point, as there is always 60 cc left when i check it, just below registering on the dipstick.

[fatohiodancer]

Oh oh. I think that I'm in trouble. I bought my 1995 LE S/C All-Trac in June, 2008. Driven it about 60,000 miles.

My lifetime average MPG is 18.4, with a best ever of 22.3 (I think that that is OK).

However, I have never even thought about supercharger oil. :-(

"If it's not broke, then don't fix it.".

It's supposed to be warm in Columbus this weekend. I'll let you know what I find.

Dan

[peterbmetcalf]

Thank you timsrv.

His claim sounds legitimate. Has anyone tried his oil? Please respond if you have.

Sam, see my reply to the claim; I quote my interesting and provocative correspondence with Ogura Clutch.

[shoebear]

Very interesting, Peter. I ordered a liter of Klubersynth this morning before reading the second page of this thread.

I suppose the next step might be to contact Matrix Garage, show them your correspondence with Mr. Murayama, and see what he says. I think Matrix is a one man show; and there's nothing wrong with that at all. But he might not have the technical and professional resources to speak on this with authority.

On the other hand, when I read about people using motor oil in their SC's -- apparently successfully -- I think that the SC must not be all that particular about its oil. In that case, probably any SC oil is OK, including the Klubersynth that Matrix sells. But if any SC oil is OK, then GM or Eaton is more readily available for about the same price of the Klubersynth.

--Dan

[peterbmetcalf]

Very interesting, Peter. I ordered a liter of Klubersynth this morning before reading the second page of this thread.

I suppose the next step might be to contact Matrix Garage, show them your correspondence with Mr. Murayama, and see what he says. I think Matrix is a one man show; and there's nothing wrong with that at all. But he might not have the technical and professional resources to speak on this with authority.

On the other hand, when I read about people using motor oil in their SC's -- apparently successfully -- I think that the SC must not be all that particular about its oil. In that case, probably any SC oil is OK, including the Klubersynth that Matrix sells. But if any SC oil is OK, then GM or Eaton is more readily available for about the same price of the Klubersynth.

--Dan

"Dan, the North America Ogura Clutch Product Manager, Fred Cacace, wrote me concerning the question and points I raised and which Mr. Murayama of the Japanese home office answered. Mr. Cacace specifically asked me to remove Mr. Yamamura's contact information, as Mr. Cacace is, as he put it, "the USA point for questions on North American Ogura superchargers."
Being an employee of Ogura, he, as the Japanese employees in Japan, is unwilling to comment or answer questions other than those concerning their own product. Products modified by Toyota no longer conform to the original Ogura Clutch specs and, as evidenced by Mr. Murayama's reply, are not even considered Ogura products after modification. Can't say that I blame them. How could they be responsible once the product leaves their factory and is modified? Hence, questions about the Previa supercharger are properly directed to Toyota.

The supercharger provided by Ogura to Toyota and which Toyota modified for the Previa, bears Toyota's designation SC 14. Ogura no longer makes that modified Ogura supercharger. The current Ogura TX 15 supercharger is similar internally but not interchangeable with the Toyota SC 14.

The oil specified by Toyota for their SC 14 is, with negligible changes to the formulation and performance, the same Klubersyth oil that is specified by Ogura for their supercharger TX 15.

In Japan, the oil specified by Ogura for the TX 15 bears the Klubersynth designation Syntheso HT-68. Klubersynth changed the designation but did not change the formulation of that oil to GH 6-80 for the market outside Japan.

Mr. Cacace wrote "Honestly I personally do not know about the Previa supercharger application. This is the first I am hearing about it. I’m not even sure it’s Ogura's blower (since that is an Asian sales office responsibility). I am fairly familiar with the Ogura-Toyota MR2 application.

"With respect to the model designations, the 12, 14 or 15 in the model number have to do with the amount of air moved with each revolution of the input shaft. For example, the TX15 moves approximately 1,500 cc’s of air with each shaft revolution, while the size 12 moves 1,200 cc’s of air.

You are welcome to quote me or paraphrase as your request, but I simply cannot comment on the Previa at all.

I paraphrase here Mr. Cacace's first email to me:

The supercharger provided by Ogura to Toyota and which Toyota modified for the Previa, bears Toyota's designation SC 14. Ogura no longer makes that Ogura supercharger. The current Ogura TX 15 supercharger is similar internally but not interchangeable with the Toyota SC 14.

The oil specified by Toyota for their SC 14 is, with negligible changes to the formulation and performance, the same Klubersyth oil that is specified by Ogura for their supercharger TX 15.

In Japan, the oil specified by Ogura for the TX 15 bears the Klubersynth designation Syntheso HT-68. Klubersynth changed the designation but did not change the formulation of that oil to GH 6-80 for the market outside Japan.

Mr. Cacace wrote in his second email, "Generally speaking, as a Japanese company, we are fairly quiet about our customers and their use of our product.

I can speak specifics about our products [italics mine] until the cows come home, but very little about “who uses what, & where…."

I recommend that anyone who wants to get further information about Matrix Garage's supercharger oil give them a call and inquire about what they do in their business, how long, and of course, ask about the supercharger oil they use. Scott Summer, the owner, is aware of this thread.

One obvious solution is simply not to change the oil oneself, but have a professional mechanic do it and warranty his work.

I am happy to forward unasked questions to Fred Cacace of North American Ogura Clutch if his contact information is not listed on their website.

[shoebear]

More great info. Thanks again, Peter.

I do hope Scott Summer drops in to give his perspective.

Dan

[yoshimitsuspeed]

More great info. Thanks again, Peter.

I do hope Scott Summer drops in to give his perspective.

Dan

With as much time as I have wasted on this. Sure why not.
Let's start with the main reason I bothered to post.


I didn't read all your email beyond this statement. I don't wish you harm, but at some point you need to clarify at presumably the most authoritative source, what is going on. When you do that, publish your finding and I may then delete what I published on the forum if I see it's no longer true. For now, it is true. Peter




Now I told mister Peter Metcalf that he had better do his research before posting potential misinformation on the internet because misinformation spreads like wildfire and is often very difficult to contain. I am sure that he has no idea what degree of effect those posts above will have but it is quite likely there will be a cascade effect that I will be dealing with as long as we choose to service these superchargers. Which we do much more as a service to the community that we do for the very small amount of money it brings in. Especially when compared to the amount of time I spend holding peoples hands and spoon feeding them information that is readily available if they cared to find it themselves.
At least he posted some information from Fred above but it does not guarentee that the information from post number 26 will always accompany post number 23 as it makes it's way around the internet. And even then post 26 appears much more questionable than Freds email did to me. But then again I have been working with him for the last 5 years on this and know more details on the subject.
I will definitely be reporting that post for misinformation and I hope the moderators delete it as such. Yes one might think that a quote from Ogura shouldn't be considered misinformation but as Fred said it is very common in this industry. Email Denso about the AC clutch on your Toyota. If they sell an aftermarket version they might be able to help you. If they don't they may not even admit to manufacturing it even if Denso is stamped on the thing.
Peters lack of trust in our business, lack of ability to research the reputation or legitimacy of our business or to do his own acceptable level of research on these superchargers has wasted my time, wasted Oguras time, wasted the time of my best resource at Ogura which is already stretched thin and has trashed the name of my business which is still publicly viewable on the internet.
My perspective?
I'm pretty pissed.
As for my perspective on the oil.
I told peter from the very beginning that to the best of our research and understanding that this was the best option available. I told him that this is what Ogura recommends for their superchargers and that if you aren't going to run Toytota oil this is the next safest alternative. I also told him there is no real way for us to know if Toyota specced anything differently. It is possible they speced different seals or different bearing grease intended to be used with different oil. This is extremely unlikely but I haven't found any information yet that 100% omits the possibility. As for those who think any old oil will do. Remember that bearings and seals are designed to work with specific oils. Anyone who brags about their SC lasting 15k miles with whatever random oil remember that these SCs often last 200k miles with no attention to the oil. Throw ATF in your manual trans that calls for 90 weight and chances are you will get 15k miles out of it. Probably a lot more than that. Does that mean you should do it? Probably not.
If you want to run Toyota oil then great. If you don't then this is your next safest bet.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Oh and hey on a brighter note while I'm here. We are trying to raise funds to get a run of internal bearings made so we would be able to completely rebuild these superchargers.
If you are interested in supporting our cause it would be greatly appreciated. Anyone who has tried to source a supercharger knows that it is getting harder to find low mileage sure healthy units. At some point soon a rebuild will be the better solution.
This may be the last time we push for this. As much time and effort as we have put into trying to support these units and as little interest as we have gotten back it's not proving worth our time to push it too much further unless we can really get a surge of support.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/toyota-sc12-and-sc14-rebuild#/

[peterbmetcalf]

I have no problem deleting my post with Mr. Murayama's email, as in light of Mr. Cacace's email which I quoted afterward in a later post, Mr. Murayama's email doesn't contribute any useful information to this thread, however the site does not allow me to delete my prior post. I appreciate Scott Summer's clarification, which in view of his website statements quoted in this thread, might have shortened this long discussion some weeks ago. Still, I much prefer to have the manufacturer's representative, in this case the North American Product Manager for Ogura Clutch, Fred Cacace, explain the Japanese corporate perspective when their products are compared to those of another company which modifies them. Many people, including this writer, a musician, need to consult the presumed authoritative source before trusting a web source and patrons of that source which, if incorrect, could create a huge repair bill. Hence the value of yelp.com with many reviews of a particular service or product.


With as much time as I have wasted on this. Sure why not.
Let's start with the main reason I bothered to post.

ow I told mister Peter Metcalf that he had better do his research before posting potential misinformation on the internet because misinformation spreads like wildfire and is often very difficult to contain. I am sure that he has no idea what degree of effect those posts above will have but it is quite likely there will be a cascade effect that I will be dealing with as long as we choose to service these superchargers. Which we do much more as a service to the community that we do for the very small amount of money it brings in. Especially when compared to the amount of time I spend holding peoples hands and spoon feeding them information that is readily available if they cared to find it themselves.
At least he posted some information from Fred above but it does not guarentee that the information from post number 26 will always accompany post number 23 as it makes it's way around the internet. And even then post 26 appears much more questionable than Freds email did to me. But then again I have been working with him for the last 5 years on this and know more details on the subject.
I will definitely be reporting that post for misinformation and I hope the moderators delete it as such. Yes one might think that a quote from Ogura shouldn't be considered misinformation but as Fred said it is very common in this industry. Email Denso about the AC clutch on your Toyota. If they sell an aftermarket version they might be able to help you. If they don't they may not even admit to manufacturing it even if Denso is stamped on the thing.
Peters lack of trust in our business, lack of ability to research the reputation or legitimacy of our business or to do his own acceptable level of research on these superchargers has wasted my time, wasted Oguras time, wasted the time of my best resource at Ogura which is already stretched thin and has trashed the name of my business which is still publicly viewable on the internet.
My perspective?
I'm pretty pissed.
As for my perspective on the oil.
I told peter from the very beginning that to the best of our research and understanding that this was the best option available. I told him that this is what Ogura recommends for their superchargers and that if you aren't going to run Toytota oil this is the next safest alternative. I also told him there is no real way for us to know if Toyota specced anything differently. It is possible they speced different seals or different bearing grease intended to be used with different oil. This is extremely unlikely but I haven't found any information yet that 100% omits the possibility. As for those who think any old oil will do. Remember that bearings and seals are designed to work with specific oils. Anyone who brags about their SC lasting 15k miles with whatever random oil remember that these SCs often last 200k miles with no attention to the oil. Throw ATF in your manual trans that calls for 90 weight and chances are you will get 15k miles out of it. Probably a lot more than that. Does that mean you should do it? Probably not.
If you want to run Toyota oil then great. If you don't then this is your next safest bet.

[shoebear]

Thank you, Scott; I appreciate your perspective and info. I think I understand the politics between Ogura and Toyota, and I get that you have good reasons for believing that the Klubersynth oil is almost certainly the same as the Toyota unicorn milk, er, supercharger oil. At this point, I have no qualms about using it. I appreciate having a reasonably priced alternative.

[timsrv]

I have no problem deleting my post with Mr. Murayama's email, as in light of Mr. Cacace's email which I quoted afterward in a later post, Mr. Murayama's email doesn't contribute any useful information to this thread, however the site does not allow me to delete my prior post.............................

I just "soft deleted" that post. It is still intact and can be brought back, but considering Scott's response and Peter's consent to delete, I doubt it will surface again. Thank you all for your contributions (it is after all a discussion forum). Sometimes in the quest for information we occasionally stray down the wrong path. In the end we all learn a little more, so I consider it a win/win :thmbup:. Tim