4runner upper ball joint conversion?

[djshimon]

So as far as I've read the oem replacement for an upper ball joint on a 4wd van is the upper control arm and it's around 326$, each, at 1sttoyotaparts. This guy(Rickyvw) selling a 1987 4wd automatic has machined a part so he can use the upper ball joint from a 4runner-which only cost around 50$, each, at 1sttoyotaparts. Pretty awesome if it works properly-I just emailed him asking if he had trouble with alignment after the conversion, and awaiting a response. Here's the link to his van for sale at toyotavanpeople: http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9578

Tim, anyone: What do you think? sounds good? I'll not be doing my ball joints for a while but I'm pretty sure they are getting tired and a 100$ option is much better than 700$!:wnk: Or am I just confused and this is different than I'm hoping it is?
Here's a picture of the conversion-looks like he maybe added a length of brake hose too:

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o565/rickyvw2/2012-03-18195022.jpg

[timsrv]

Wow! Looks pretty awesome to me. The spacer he used will also give more lift than just cranking up the bars. That looks like a pretty good deal on his van (considering all he's done). Somebody from around my area please buy it.........then bring it to me so I can reverse engineer his work :)>:. Short of that it would sure be nice if he could post more details about the work he did (a dimensional sketch would be awesome :yes:. I see he made some pretty awesome looking spring spacers for the rear as well. I have an extra set of upper a-arms sitting here.......perhaps I'll look at modding mine like this too. Tim

[djshimon]

Yeah, he might save us some serious $-too bad he's getting out of the van scene with a busted motor. He answered my pm already: Said he's a machinist by trade(figures) and he could look up his receipt(I'd have lost that long ago) for which year 4runner it works with. I asked if he'd fabricate me a couple for a price-waiting on a answer. I'll ask about the dimensional sketch too.

[timsrv]

I sent him a PM too. The poor guy just wants to sell his van and only gets bombarded with questions (unrelated to a possible sale). It all looks pretty straight forward, but it's always nice to learn from somebody else's experiences (as I'm sure there were some issues to figure out). I'm pretty sure he needed longer brake hoses (the one in his pic looks pretty new), so a part number for those (along with the ball joints) would save some research. The camber would be a consideration. The increased articulation of the lower arm would likely throw this off a bit. This could be compensated for when locating/machining the holes for the joint spacer/adapter. If you "miss" the 1st time you could probably "re-make" with a different off-set, but there's nothing like hitting it dead-on 1st time around. Fabbing the rear spacers would be pretty straight forward, but without a dimensional drawing you'd almost need to take things apart for measurements (prior to purchasing raw materials & building). Having plans would certainly speed up the process and save some downtime for the van. Another option might be searching for longer springs, but there's so many different diameters, gauges, and lengths, finding the correct combination can be pretty hit & miss. Tim

[djshimon]

I felt bad about asking him too many questions too, I agree with you-he just wants to sell his van. But, he knows something really good so I couldn't not ask:wave2:. He said the alignment shop didn't even blink or ask if there was any aftermarket anything and that the alignment went smooth. I'm eagerly awaiting the next step. Hopefully he'll fab me a couple and I can pay him something for his time. Otherwise I hope we(you, actually) get the dimensions and fab some so we(I) can use them in the not too far future.:thmbup:

[timsrv]

I've been in contact with Rick and he has agreed to do this job for me. I shipped him a set of 4wd A-Arms today. He is going to do pretty much the same thing he did for his but plans on making some minor changes (things that hindsight has taught him). In addition to the A-Arm/ball-joint mod he will also be making me a set of steel spacers for my rear springs (see picture below). I'll take some pics and post a dimensional sketch of the mod once I get the parts back. He said to expect a couple of weeks. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/2012-02-11171733.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/2012-03-18195005.jpg

[djshimon]

Oh yeah I forgot he responded to me. He said 200 each arm plus cost of ball joints. I don't have extra a-arms to spare or the couple weeks to get it back, or the money required at this time, but I'm sure glad you do Tim! It does seem like a much better deal than OEM considering the ball joints are replaceable after the upgrade. I am curious to see the dimensions-although I'm no machinist. I also told him some others on this site may be interested in the conversion, if he's interested in more work, but I haven't heard back yet. Spacers look pretty cool too. Can't wait to hear about your new a-arms/ball joints:clap:.

[timsrv]

After making my sketch & installing the modified ones, assuming I'm happy with them, I'll probably do the same mod on my old A-arms (so I have a spare set). Tim

[CEW]

I'm very interested in this conversion/lift. I would gladly pay for some shop drawings if anyone has some. Tim?

[timsrv]

I received all the machined/modified parts just as we were beginning our move. They were promptly deposited in a box and buried by other boxes. The parts are here somewhere, but due to the chaos of moving it will be some time before I can get back to this project. Sorry. Tim

[gushaman]

any updates Tim? im eagerly awaiting your writeup,

[timsrv]

With the move and my cargo van being wrecked it will take months to get into this......maybe longer. On top of everything else I'm forced outside with car projects until I get some construction work done here (also doing myself). Sorry, but I've got priorities and this project is not one of them..................yet :cry:. Tim

[coronan]

I'm getting ready to embark on this my self.
Here's the dimension for a 90 4 Runner.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7ebsGsZHA0I/UI7wTM6B9KI/AAAAAAAAIhY/1xL53c7d_VM/s800/2012-10-29%2013.52.50.jpg

If you cant read the measurements. Please let me know.

My ball joint came with pressed in studs. They tap out easy but the holes are slightly oversized.

There is not one square thing on the ball joint. I plan on cutting some plate and transfer punching the holes. 5/16 or 8mm bolts will fit in the holes with a little play. If there is still slop after I make my plate the bolts may get upgraded to 3/8.

Then comes making it greasable. It would be easy to make a gaket. But would a full face gasket flex and affect alignment?

[djshimon]

Oh good Coronan! Looks like a good start. I don't know about the greasing aspect but shouldn't it last at least ten years without needing a to be greased?

[coronan]

Being that this is going to be applied to a 4x4. The thicker my adapter plate is; the more lift I get; the softer i can run my tortion bars. .... Correct?

I have access to 3/4", 1" and 1.5" plate.

Is there such thing as making the adapter plate too thick????

Affects on allignment?
Can I compensate for any problems in alignment while doing this mod?

[timsrv]

Being that this is going to be applied to a 4x4. The thicker my adapter plate is; the more lift I get; the softer i can run my tortion bars. .... Correct?

I have access to 3/4", 1" and 1.5" plate.

Is there such thing as making the adapter plate too thick????

Affects on allignment?
Can I compensate for any problems in alignment while doing this mod?

All good questions & I have concerns with these issues as well. The big potential problem here is the lower control arm. The thicker the plate, the more rotation on the lower control arm. The big question is "how much is too much?". At some point of the rotation the camber (among other things) will become an issue. When I do the installation I plan on carefully checking geometry. If there is a problem I may end up modifying or perhaps even completely re-manufacturing the lower control arm.

So little time, so many projects.........sigh :?:

[originalkwyjibo]

I ran across this thread the other day while researching shocks and doing a lift on my 88. I was considering something similar and was wondering if there were any updates? Have you dug them out of their box yet?

[timsrv]

Nope, still in their box. Moving sucks. Still lots of other work to be done & fires to put out before I can "play" with my toys. Sorry. Tim

[coronan]

Here's another idea.

http://blazeland.us/long-arm-kits/

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/1109829-lengthening-ifs-control-arms.html

...As long as we're fabbing....

[CEW]

I invited blazeland to check out our forum. Maybe he will be willing to help us out in some way. I'd really like to take my van to the next level.http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.png

pun intended

[coronan]

I tried calling them a while back. Ended up leaving a message. They never responded.

[Rickyvw]

Hello guys, if anyone is interested, I'm selling my van for a very low price $1200 obo. The newer engine is smoking excessively and I'm not going to fix it. If anyone wants it for the ball joint conversion parts or the dual range transfer case, it'll be a very good deal. Plus it has a ton of new parts like tie rods, tires, calipers and the list goes on.

Thanks, Ric

[jaybird]

Tim, any headway on this?

Im in the need of replacing mine and thought I would go this route. But any help would be appreciated.

Jay

[timsrv]

Sorry,

This is a "fun" project & as such get's a low priority. Too many high priority projects, too little time :cry:

[gushaman]

Bump bump, lol i bet they are still in a box eh tim?

[timsrv]

Yes, at least I found the box and know where it is. Still too busy with other more important things. This project is way down low on the priority list (sorry). Tim

[gushaman]

Cool cool

[rockstacker]

This one is worth waiting on, tim. You da man. :thmbup:

[timsrv]

I was slowly getting caught up on projects, but now my 02 F350 started missing. Turns out the 7.3 turbo diesel is losing compression in cylinder #3 :no:. Still runs decent when warm, but is starting to smoke and runs like crap when cold. So that's the next big project. Just found a core engine and tore it down this weekend...............evaluating. Big project! Had to buy a special engine stand as this thing weighs 1,000 lbs! Just boxed up the injectors for shipping (for service)........those alone are huge and together weigh 25 lbs!

[rockstacker]

Boy, it never ends... the 7.3 is a reasonably stout machine, too! My dad has an early 90s model with nearly 450,000 miles on it. Good trucks. Good luck, Tim!:cool::cool:

[timsrv]

Yes, mine only has 185k miles on it. It had 150k on it when I bought it (2010) but was a repo and I don't know history. It didn't have an air cleaner on it and I don't know how long it was driven that way :dizzy:. If the PO was using starting fluid this can cause rings to break, which is what I suspect happened. A broken ring will gradually score the cylinder wall until it has trouble building compression. Tim

[FCDRIFT]

Any news on this? Looks very interesting and might be a better bet than just cranking the torsion.

[gushaman]

I literally think about this every day. I think those 4 runner ball joint spacers are available for around $60 a set, but whiteout more info, I'm not gonna try to tackle this project. I also want to find out the height, i.d, and o.d. ot the coil spring spacers.

[FCDRIFT]

I literally think about this every day. I think those 4 runner ball joint spacers are available for around $60 a set, but whiteout more info, I'm not gonna try to tackle this project. I also want to find out the height, i.d, and o.d. ot the coil spring spacers.


lol, everyday?

[gushaman]

Every day I drive my van, my 235 75 15 tires rub when steering is almost at full lock. Everyday I drive my van and I hear the rear tires rub on the plastic mud flaps. Every day I think about it, and everyday I am tempt to bother tim about it, lol :dance2:

[originalkwyjibo]

Wow! I thought I was the only one with this affliction. Nice to see it affects others as well. I almost tried to talk him out of them over the weekend. My lower BJ suddenly got real sloppy and while replacing it I noticed what I considered A LOT of vertical play in the upper BJ. I checked the manual and discovered they allow .091" vertical play! I've been waiting for my cranked torsion bars to rip these things apart. On a side note, if anyone is ever in a pinch and needs a lower ball joint, the truck/ 4runner lowers will fit. They just don't have the arm for steering stop.

Edit: The Moog ball joint fits, Parts Master not so much. The part # for both brands is K9587. Could be helpful in a pinch when the correct part is unavailable.

[originalkwyjibo]

Hey Tim! Any chance of a mini photo shoot?

[FCDRIFT]

Every day I drive my van, my 235 75 15 (tel:235 75 15) tires rub when steering is almost at full lock. Everyday I drive my van and I hear the rear tires rub on the plastic mud flaps. Every day I think about it, and everyday I am tempt to bother tim about it, lol :dance2:


hahhahahahahhahahah!!!! That's tough, I hope this happens sooner for your sake!!

[timsrv]

My lower BJ suddenly got real sloppy and..............

Hey, now let's keep it clean :rol:

I'm in the middle of the busy season and it's the busiest it's ever been. We're working till at least 8 pm every night, and often as late as midnight. I'm backlogged into July now, so this doesn't leave any time for van projects. Sorry, but I won't likely be looking at this thing for a long time. When I do I'll be thorough and I'll make a detailed post. Tim

[originalkwyjibo]

I guess I should have done some proof reading. LOL We'll be anxiously waiting. Glad to hear you've got plenty of work.

[FCDRIFT]

Hey, now let's keep it clean :rol:

I'm in the middle of the busy season and it's the busiest it's ever been. We're working till at least 8 pm every night, and often as late as midnight. I'm backlogged into July now, so this doesn't leave any time for van projects. Sorry, but I won't likely be looking at this thing for a long time. When I do I'll be thorough and I'll make a detailed post. Tim


Happy new year!!!

xmas/new years is over and the kids are back in school. still wishfully hoping theres an update on this.

my van started to pull left when i brake. im thinking it might be lower control arm bushings but have yet had time to take off the wheel and look at it. could also be my passenger side brake caliper not working? idk, any input would be greatly appreciated!

[FCDRIFT]

What's the difference between the 2wd and 4wd front upper control arm anyways? I was at the local yard today and saw the control arm setup for a 2wd van and they have upper ball joints that are removable. Would I be able to switch the upper control arm from a 2wd into my 4wd? If that's the case, I can just make a spacer for the upper ball joint and get the lift I want.

Something tells me the Torsen bars from my 4wd won't work on a 2wd control arm. Can someone please shed some light on this before I spend the whole day at the yard taking it all apart and then finding out it won't work, thanks!!! ❤️❤️😿😿😿👬👬👬👬

[timsrv]

The control arms are quite different & the torsion bars between 2wd & 4wd are different lengths & diameters. If you were getting into a major project (fabricating, swapping, etc), then having 2wd van control arms around for evaluation and/or modification would be a good idea. Who knows, you might be able to come up with something that could utilize the 2wd parts. I plan on doing this some day and I have a lot of new parts laying around for this very reason. I grabbed an upper control arm for a 4wd, laid it next to a 2wd arm, and took some pics:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3931_zpsichudoui.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3932_zpsnztgzeqx.jpg


Here are close-ups of the torsion bar mount areas

2WD
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3933_zpsvqa2jjni.jpg

4WD
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3934_zpscajkvgmc.jpg


Here's a 2wd with the torsion bar mounted:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3935_zpsitj8mchd.jpg

Heres a 4wd with the torsion bar mounted:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_3936_zpsb1msiysl.jpg

Okay, here's some information I have documented regarding torsion bars:

86-89 2wd Toyota van
P/S torsion bar #48161-28020
D/S torsion bar #48162-28020

The above bars measure 39 3/8" long (1 meter). They are .78" dia. (19.8 mm), both splined ends are identical having 37 splines each. The minor diameter of the splines measure 1.060" (26.924 mm) & the major diameter measures 1.112" (28.245 mm).

Downey makes a 24mm torsion bars for 79-95 2wd Toyota trucks, but the overall length is 35 1/8" long (4 1/4" too short).

They also make a 26mm torsion bar for 86-95 IFS 4wd Toyota trucks, but these measure 41 3/4" long (2 3/8" too long).

According to Mike at Downey, these are the closest thing they make. I asked if there was any way to beef up original bars, and the answer is no. I asked if the splined ends were the same, but he was busy and asked me to call back later. I probably wouldn't bother except there might still be something positive here.

I haven't disassembled to measure the bars on a 4wd yet, but according to a member who has, the 4wd bars are 22mm diameter but are 25mm (about 1") longer than the 2wd bars. This is due to the difference in the way they mount to the upper control arms. This means the Downey 26 mm bars are only 1 3/8" (34.925 mm) too long for the 4wd vans and the Downey 26mm bars may just fit into a 4wd with some minor fabrication as shown here:

Here's a stock rear torsion mount:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TorsionBefore.jpg

Here's one modified to accept a longer bar:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TorsionAfter.jpg

Coronan (member here) has already done some mods to use 95 4Runner bars (25mm diameter) and I may just follow his example when I do my project. If you're planning something like this, his thread is one to bookmark for sure. Here it is: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2173-4-runner-torsion-bar-MOD

If/when I get around to my project I'll bug the guys at Downey about getting some specific measurements of the splined areas on the 26mm bars. If they're the same, it might be worth a shot.

[spacecruisers]

Did tim or anyone ever figure this out? I did the aerostar springs and tacoma bilstein shocks in the rear so now the front could use some attention. A lot of the components are wearing out, and the torsion crank makes it insanely bouncy. I'd love to get in there and replace some of the front end stuff (think it might need a new rack/pinon as well...) and figure out a way to get that additional lift without cranking torsions. additional travel would also be super nice, if its achievable. i also really like the idea of being able to use cheap/readily available 4runner parts

[spacecruisers]

Tim, did you ever do the 4runner upper ball joint conversion? I'm looking to do ball joints and it appears with 4WD's you have to replace the entire upper control arms (which are prohibitively expensive) ...the extra lift would also be nice :)

[timsrv]

Sorry, but I won't likely be looking at this thing for a long time. When I do I'll be thorough and I'll make a detailed post. Tim

This particular project is low on my list of priorities.........perhaps if I ever retire?

[Jonny]

This particular project is low on my list of priorities.........but I'm retiring next week

Tim - I fixed your previous post for ya.

[spacecruisers]

Hahaha, Tim - go ahead and retire - you have our permission (and gratitude) :rol:

[timsrv]

Tim - I fixed your previous post for ya.

LOL.........I wish I could afford to. If you guys send me enough money, perhaps I can retire early :thmbup:. Tim

[coronan]

Tim,

I thought you were using helper shocks / coil overs?
Part Numbers?

I pulled my upper arms off and there is no play (zero) in my upper ball joint.
My van had 150,000 mi when i got it. The grease ports had plugs in them. I put in the metric zerks and grease a about once / year.

It now has 260,000. Still no play!

[timsrv]

I was using Gabriel coil-overs on one of my overloaded 2wd vans. It did help with the ride height but made the front bouncy. I wouldn't recommend those unless you're overloaded and it's a last resort to get some suspension back. I will likely eventually do something like you did with stronger torsion bars, then put some good KYB's or similar there. Tim

PS: Regarding your ball joints.........OEM Toyota ball joints are some damn good joints. If it ain't broke........don't fix it :thmbup:

[TheCrippler]

Is it possible to pull the ball joint out of the arm with a puller? It looks like its just pressed in there, but I haven't taken a good look up close.

If the ball joint could be removed from the upper arm I wonder if you could replace it with a longer stud, then put a spacer in there between the spindle and joint. Kinda like putting a few washers on before tightening on a nut.


So did anyone ever complete the 4runner balljoint conversion? worth it? pros cons?

[armorrell]

Hi folks. I know this thread is older, but I've been curious if anyone knows what year model 4Runner Ball joints would work. Or, are they basically just a standard size item across most years?
I'm about to lift "Crusty" and would like to keep my ride as comfortable as possible by avoiding too much crank on the torsion bars if possible.

I'm doing the Bilstein pistons and Aerostar Springs that have been recommended in other threads. Also I'll be going with Suzuki Sami 15" wheels with Either BFG's or General Grabbers.

Thanks for any help.

This is Prelift. :)
10084

[Diy2k]

So....

What’s the review on 2wd ball joint spacers ?

[Burntboot]

Being that you're in the 4WD section of the forum, I doubt you'll get much "traction" asking 2WD questions :)

[Diy2k]

Dang

I’m getting sag up front on my 2wd and wondered if 2” spacers would help.

[Burntboot]

If you're getting sag then spacers are NOT the answer, address what's causing the problem and fix it.

As long as nothing is broken or worn, you should be able to crank the torsion bars a bit to correct the ride height.

[Diy2k]

The struts are new. I’m going to swap the ball joints next go. Maybe sagging torsion bars ?

[Burntboot]

Shocks control rebound.

Ball joints (all joints for that matter)should only be replaced if they show looseness/play or are seized.

The only thing that controls height is spring tension, or in this case, the torsion bar.
When springs sag they get replaced.
Torsion bars however have some adjustment, so you can increase the load on the bar and raise the van back up to spec.
I cant imagine the procedure would be different from 4wd but ride height and where to measure likely will be, best to consult the manual.

[Headhunter38]

Has anyone condsidered converting the whole control arm from say a 4runner of the year instead of modifying the existing the control arms to accept different ball joints? And then from there running some of the 4runner kits? Im going to be getting my hands on a 1987 4runner CA and doing some measurements to see how difficult it would be.

[oren]

@Headhunter38 please keep us updated with what you find, good or bad! I've been struggling to plan out a front end rebuild and feel like there must be some other 4runner or truck suspension parts that would fit here that would make future maintenance and mods/lifts easier.

[Headhunter38]

My preliminary measurements lead me to believe that it is possible. The CAs are nearly the same size the only issue is finding the right placement of it and the mounting holes for the 4runner arms. The vans bolts are vertical and theres only two of them,, 4runners mount horizontalaly and there's three of them. I'm not sure but I think the 4runner ca mounting part can be rotated 90 degrees and then just new holes drill into the vans frame. The attached pictures shpw what I'm talking about. I plan to take a more detailed look at it when I get to doing the front end bearings and brakes. I also believe that it's possible to swap the lower control arms, cv axles, hubs, steering knuckles and brakes to the 4runners. That would make it a lot easier getting replacement and upgrade parts. Of course going that far will require a lot more time and fabricobbling. I will definitely update on here if and when I can get to this.