getting to the bottom of head gasket failure?

[Campwagon]

has anyone actually has found out exactly why these things pop head gaskets? I have a 75k mile engine in my parts van and am thinking about redoing it and having the head / block milled for o rings to increase the sealing power of the head gasket, but is are the overheating issues the root cause of the head gasket failure? or is it some other flaw in the engine? I would like to keep this thing from failing for 150-200k miles, and it seems to me that o ringing might be the right idea... anyone have any thoughts on this?

[kcg795]

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the headgasket failures are caused by overheating. Don't let your engine overheat and your headgasket will last as long as the engine will. Another cause of failure is using an aftermarket headgasket after your original one blows. So spend the extra money and get your headgasket from the dealer. I had my engine rebuilt by a Toyota Dealer, which was Ulhmann Motors up in Chehalis, WA, and they used an aftermarket headgasket. It lasted, maybe, 10,000 miles. Maybe not even that. I noticed coolant was disappearing and I used some Bars Leak to try to fix it. After that, I noticed I had a little bit more power and less steam from the exhaust. This was fine for another year until I started losing coolant again. I decided to tear it apart myself and noticed the headgasket was blown on cylinders 3 and 4. I changed it myself and it's still holding coolant 35,000 miles later. The engine did run hot a couple times after that. One time was due to a bad thermostat. Had to rely on both heaters to keep the engine cool. The radiator was stone cold since it wasn't getting any flow. So yeah, 70 mile round trip with windows open and heat on full blast on a warm day is fun. Another time was when the hose of death started leaking. I did not even bother changing it when I redid the headgasket. So please change this hose when you change your headgasket. It's a little hose in the back of the cylinder head and a roflroflroflroflrofl to get to. Easiest and most popular way to access it is cut a hole in the back of the engine compartment and make a new access panel. So, there you have it. Don't let your engine overheat and your headgasket will last forever.

[Campwagon]

the van i am getting has had the head gasket and head replaced, with Toyota parts, so should be good, also it has a leaking heater hose, that will be the first thing I replace. I plan on running the engine thats in there for a while, but i do have a 75k mile motor with a bad head gasket that i can use, i may still have the head o ringed and swap over the cylinder head bolts to studs, if that combo can keep diesels with 30psi of boost under control i think it would work on my 4y engine.

[Campwagon]

and the motor should be able to withstand a bit of overheating, that should be in the design, im sure there is something that could be improved to make this motor more robust.

[kcg795]

The cylinder head is still going to warp if it does overheat.

[llamavan]

and the motor should be able to withstand a bit of overheating, that should be in the design, im sure there is something that could be improved to make this motor more robust.

The problem isn't what the engine can handle — it's that the Vanwagon engine compartment is SO small and enclosed that what challenges (coolant leak, plugged rad, stuck t-stat, whatever) would register as a more gradual temp increase in any other vehicle quickly goes red-line in the Vans. Also, the Van radiators are as large as they possibly can be (given the lack of space) and yet still don't approach the size of rads on other four-bangers (which have more room and thus engineers put in larger radiators!).

There are very, very few choices to improve cooling and give a Vanwagon a larger margin of safety (which will never approach that of a conventionally-placed engine).

(1) Ditch the A/C completely (if your van has it).
(2) Get a high-performance recore done on the radiator, assuming the extra row fits (it can be done on the 4WD rad).
(3) Install an additional heater core to increase the cooling capacity (timsrv has plumbed a Previa core into his work Van).
(4) Forget Vanwagons, they ain't for you.
That's about it (yes, you COULD drive with the passenger side access panel off and all the windows down, but who would want to??? :no:).

A historical point to consider — in other countries, Toyota put a 1.8L 2Y engine in the Vans. The 2.0L 3Y was the original engine sent to the US and Canada (1984 and 1985) and my first-hand experience is that while it most certainly is possible to overheat a 3Y, there is definitely more time to notice the temp gauge heading for red than in a 4Y-powered Van. The 2.2L 4Y is totally pushing the envelope of what can operate in the Van's engine compartment, and it was done well after Toyota engineers decided what should go in there. The 4Y ain't generating that extra horsepower on fairy dust — it's burning hotter.

So actually, there is a (5) Find a 1.8L 2Y engine and swap 'em. (In a 4WD, that would just about keep you from going anywhere, too.)

Gwen

[Campwagon]

I thought about getting an aluminum radiator, also it looks like toyota put the 4y in export pickups, which also had the problem of head gaskets, in a MUCH larger engine bay, and radiator. not saying that proves anything, just worth a note, I wonder if its thickness of the block or head mating surface, how many head bolts does the motor have?

[timsrv]

I don't know anything about the 4y pick-ups as I have no personal experience with them. I do know that aluminum heads on cast iron blocks do not withstand overheating well (on any engine). When I worked for Toyota we'd get trucks in the shop with blown head gaskets on 22R engines all the time. I don't think the van is unique in this regard, nor any more (or less) prone to head gasket failure. If you take care of the 4y and keep it within the acceptable temperature range it should be fine. Running temp (as measured at the cylinder head) should be around 200 deg F. Under extreme conditions (hill climbing on a hot day, etc) I would consider brief periods up to 220 deg F to be acceptable, but I'd avoid ever running it hotter than that. Running hot is hard on more than just the head gasket. It can also damage pistons and cylinder walls. Rather than try and make the 4y "heat proof" I would focus more on trying to keep it cool.

BTW, I'm not aware of head gasket issues with the 4y forklifts (and I've had a bit of exposure to those). Of course the forklifts don't put any where near the demands on a 4y (in regards to power output) as automotive applications. Forklifts don't typically run hot either........so IMO, how hard you push them also has a bearing on things. Tim

[Campwagon]

I thought of that too, the harder you work that engine the higher the cylinder pressure, running hot is baaad, for the reasons you said, and the oil thins out terribly, pre-ignition happens sooner yadda yadda yadda. I think the reason the fork lifts don't pop head gaskets is because of the hydraulic systems? lessening the demand on the engine, least that's what my feeble brain came up with... that about right? and yeah don't plan on making it heat proof, but focusing on making the cooling system perfect is what i plan on doing, as I do want to tow my 3 wheeler to the trails.

[wirewrkr]

I hate to reopen old threads, but this one's really important to me ( I live in the Mojave ).
What Tim said about Aluminum heads/cast iron blocks is pretty right on the money.
When I was working at several Toyota dealers on the DC Beltway back in the early 90s, I bought a lot of used 22r pickups cheap.
Blown headgaskets were often the blame given, but sometimes it was a worn out chain which had a habit of sawing through the front timing cover and mixing coolant and oil and then overheating, usually warping or cracking the heads.
Funny thing though, I didn't see it as much or hardly at all on the 20R engine.
As a matter of fact one of my favorite trucks was an 85 econo-truck that I bought for $50.00 with a missing head (long story). The next week I bought an 81 celica that the body was rusted away on from a customer for $100.00, Badda Bing Badda Boom, I grafted the 20R into The 85 and made very minor modifications on the throttle linkage and drove the hell out of it until a local field hand just had to have it worse than me.
I think Gwen hit it on the head with the main reason for the head gasket being the small cramped engine compartment and the trapped hot air up there.
Back in the 70s I drove and owned more than a few old style American van's that had a similar engine layout, ( between the seats) and they always had hot running problems.
I'm think about designing some auxiliary ducting and fans to carry hot air away after stopping, and direct more in while moving down the road. I'll work on the idea.
Also I am leaning heavily towards the idea of removing, both of the AC systems.
My needle sits just to the right of the middle and so far is hovering there, but it's only gotten up to 98 outside so far, so we'll see.
Thanks to all of you for having this great site, it's been fun reacquainting myself with actually working on a Toyota. My T100 hardly ever needs anything, it's only got 255,000 miles on it. Just A BABY!

[timsrv]

Old threads are cool! feel free to re-open them whenever you find a good one :yes:. I'm doing a major project on my 2wd cargo van right now and I'm working on some sheet metal parts (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?289-Is-it-the-infamous-hot-soak&p=6446#post6446) to catch the air and direct it up into the engine compartment. I am also rigging up a "hot alarm". I found a fan switch that kicks on at 221 deg F and it's going to trigger a piezo alarm & an LED on my dash. I've got too much time and money wrapped up in this new engine to risk overheating it due to a distraction or lapse of attention.

I like my air conditioning and not planning on giving that up any time soon :no: :cool:. Tim

[User1]

I like my air conditioning and not planning on giving that up any time soon :no: :cool:. Tim

It's really kinda funny how it seems that people in the north don't have any intentions giving up their air, while people in the south are looking at doing so. I am also looking at giving up my air, but I'm still at the learning phase of what my options are. For instance I don't think there's any vents on my van, is that correct? I lived pretty much my whole life without using my air in the cars I had, but at least I had liberal use of the having vents on my car. Plus I wasn't sitting on an engine.

Looks like the AC has been worked on in my van. There's a couple of mounting bolts taken off of the heater core(?) and there's no AC belt on the engine. I don't take these as good signs.

[wirewrkr]

USER1, if you ever wander over to Joshua Tree, like so many coast folks like to do, Let me know. I have a complete shop available, and I always like meeting new folks that share the same interests in these coolio machines.
That goes for any of you TVW folks that travel down this way.
Our National Park here is one of the most beautiful I've seen and most folks don't even know about it!

[User1]

USER1, if you ever wander over to Joshua Tree, like so many coast folks like to do, Let me know. I have a complete shop available, and I always like meeting new folks that share the same interests in these coolio machines.
That goes for any of you TVW folks that travel down this way.
Our National Park here is one of the most beautiful I've seen and most folks don't even know about it!

Thanks wirewrkr, I've been to JT before and my last time there was on my BMW motorcycle. I've been not to far from JT fairly recently. I went with my tribe to Slab City. We went there two years in a row. Both trips out there I used public transportation to Banning, then rode my bicycle to Slab City. Both times was an awesome ride, and a great time at the Slabs.

I'll keep your offer in mind if I'm ever heading that way again. Nice area you're at!

[wirewrkr]

I make my living with BMW motorcycle parts.
What bike do you have User1?

[technocj]

My 85 2 whl was running warm on trips to North Carolina[auto, no AC] Before this spring's trip, I installed after market 170 thermostat, and the aux radiator referenced from a post on this site. On the return leg, with air temp at mid 80's the temp gauge never got over vertical, I then opened the valve to the aux, and it dropped a couple of needle widths. Around home turf [western New York] I think the thermostat would have been sufficient. I had a 190 after market thermo in the van for 10 years with no issues, other than slightly elevated temp on uphill runs, a good load in the van and temps of 88-90. The rad is a few years old, I keep it flushed and clean externally. The van just hit 200k, drives and shifts great. I've been running 205-14 tires, ok over the road but I think the smaller tires are better for local driving.

[wirewrkr]

Excellent feedback, just the kind I was looking for!

[User1]

I make my living with BMW motorcycle parts.
What bike do you have User1?


Dang man, I don't have my bike anymore. :?: I used to have an '86 R80 with rack and bags. Might still have a couple of extra bags.

You not selling bicycling stuff are you?

[User1]

For instance I don't think there's any vents on my van, is that correct?

I noticed this question got kinda browsed over. :whistle:

Don't tell me the vents are those little things on the top of the ends of the dash? Can take a pic of them if no one knows what I'm talking about.

[wirewrkr]

Naw, just BMW motorcycle parts, new and used
and ShopSmith woodworking stuff. I also restore older ShopSmiths.
Since I was laid off from my "real" job after the market crash, I have been on my own just selling whatever I can spin a profit with online.
I try to stick with stuff I know. And I seem to be payin my bills.

[User1]

Hey wirewrkr,

If you got anything online, please do share. I'd love to see what it is you're working on or selling. Not easy reinventing yourself after putting in a good amount of your life into a company. I wish you the best in doing so.

Getting back to my question;
I was hoping I would have gotten a response regarding what exactly is the vents on these vans. I'm really not kidding that I don't know where the vent, or "fresh air" is suppose to be coming from. I always drove before on the freeway with windows up and vents open. If I was getting a little too warm on my journey, I'd turn on the fan. Never the AC.

So am I to rearrange my habits? I really don't want to be working on my AC at this time. I got a feeling that the only "fresh air" to be had is an open window. Or is the "fresh air" from the console settings? The only "vents" I could find is one of these on each end of the dash.

680

[wirewrkr]

My vents don't work either, and here in SOCAL, the older AC systems can be a joke at best probably due to the intense heat and extremely dry air.
I will look into my vents and AC system more as I get more free time.
I hope you didn't clean out the pick a parts, I was heading over tomorrow to go on a hunt. Where did you go and was there anything left of any of handfull of vanwagens I saw in the inventory?
If they're picked clean I don't wanna waste and 80 mile drive.
My website is www.wirewerkes.com.
On Ebay I sell lots of different stuff, whatever I can turn a profit on.
My moniker is lostinspace11
Yeah yeah, heard it before, don't bother:lol:

[User1]

I hope you didn't clean out the pick a parts, I was heading over tomorrow to go on a hunt. Where did you go and was there anything left of any of handfull of vanwagens I saw in the inventory?

I'll take a look at your website tomorrow. I just so happened to take a peek at my email and saw there was a notice.

The wreckers are a bit of a hit and miss. The two I've hit and didn't get much out of are as follows.

Pick Your Parts - http://www.pickyourpart.com/locations/ Stanton and Wilmington

Ecology Auto Parts - http://www.ecoparts.com/locations.htm Santa Fe Springs and Wilmington

I wasn't too impressed with any of the them the two times I went. If you have an email you can message me, I can keep you posted on at least the Wilmington spots. The yards change pretty fast. I think I'll go nuts with the first 4x4 I'll see in the yard! :LOL2: Is there anything in particular you are looking for? BTW tomorrow I'm going to be in LA, so I won't be around LB.

[timsrv]

User1, sorry for the late response, but up until your last post I didn't completely understand what you were asking. There are the two vents on each end of the dash and the double one in the center of the dash. There is also one down by your feet and the defrost at the base of the windshield. The bottom left slider controls whether the air is recirculated or brought in fresh. Fresh vented air kind of sucks on the van as the inlet is small and it doesn't get the "ram air" effect. Intake air must also pass through the fan motor squirrel cage before entering the cabin. The outside air intake is behind the passenger side headlight and doesn't really move too good unless you turn on the fan. Even then it's pretty lame. This is one of the reasons why I'll never give up my AC..........at least not without a fight. Tim

[User1]

The outside air intake is behind the passenger side headlight and doesn't really move too good unless you turn on the fan. Even then it's pretty lame. This is one of the reasons why I'll never give up my AC..........at least not without a fight. Tim

I take it I'll be able to figure out how this is turned off and on once I find it? The levers on the center of the dash doesn't really move all that well. I'll have a chance to work on this tomorrow and see if I can get it to work better. As of now it's roll down the driver's window and drive. Got a feeling it's gona be keeping both the driver's and passanger's window down and drive. I also need to get those windows to be able to move freely. Gota suck if I ever lose power on the windows!!

[bigduke6]

I just got a 87 2wd in Sequim Wa 3 weeks ago. It seemed to run good on the 60 mile drive to my friends house. PO told me it would overheat if pushed hard on a long trip. Replaced t stat with OEM, but would sometimes get hot and spew from the overflow. Replaced hg with a felpro kit from napa.( I should know better, but hadn't had time to look at this forum much yet! The passages for the water jacket around the cylinders are seriously restricted-a couple holes about 3mm diameter. FWIW, it looks like there was a felpro in there when I took it out too.) Seemed to work well on a couple trips over the mountains. In Seattle one day and in stop and go traffic got up to about 7/8 on the gauge. Parked it and it spewed a little. Let it cool down and added about a quart of coolant.

A couple questions:
Are the water passages on the Toyota gasket restricted like this?

Was there a shield installed to the bottom of the subframe between the front bumper and the rad to direct flow through the rad? It seems like it would help and there are a couple threaded holes in the subframe.

Not related but the ac belt was removed by po, and there are two open threaded fittings on the lower right of the ac condenser. Anybody know what hooked up to these? I would like to get the ice maker working, since it's the coolest option ever offered on a vehicle as far as I know.

Thanks for a great forum and all the help offered here.

[Previa dude]

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the headgasket failures are caused by overheating. Don't let your engine overheat and your headgasket will last as long as the engine will. Another cause of failure is using an aftermarket headgasket after your original one blows. So spend the extra money and get your headgasket from the dealer. I had my engine rebuilt by a Toyota Dealer, which was Ulhmann Motors up in Chehalis, WA, and they used an aftermarket headgasket. It lasted, maybe, 10,000 miles. Maybe not even that. I noticed coolant was disappearing and I used some Bars Leak to try to fix it. After that, I noticed I had a little bit more power and less steam from the exhaust. This was fine for another year until I started losing coolant again. I decided to tear it apart myself and noticed the headgasket was blown on cylinders 3 and 4. I changed it myself and it's still holding coolant 35,000 miles later. The engine did run hot a couple times after that. One time was due to a bad thermostat. Had to rely on both heaters to keep the engine cool. The radiator was stone cold since it wasn't getting any flow. So yeah, 70 mile round trip with windows open and heat on full blast on a warm day is fun. Another time was when the hose of death started leaking. I did not even bother changing it when I redid the headgasket. So please change this hose when you change your headgasket. It's a little hose in the back of the cylinder head and a roflroflroflroflrofl to get to. Easiest and most popular way to access it is cut a hole in the back of the engine compartment and make a new access panel. So, there you have it. Don't let your engine overheat and your headgasket will last forever. WHERE IS THIS HOSE OF DEATH?

[timsrv]

The search feature is your friend :yes: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?213-The-hose-of-death-thread&highlight=hose+death