My audio thread

[Previologist]

I have very specific needs for a receiver, (I just can't call it a head unit) and the one I want to use (my 3rd or 4th choice actually, but I digress) is 188mm wide x 58.5 high, which is 8 mm wider and higher than standard single DIN, and 8mm wider and higher than my current head unit, and 8 mm wider and higher than the opening in my dash. So the first of my many questions to come is, has anyone had this problem before? I really don't want to mutilate my dash molding, as widening it 4mm on each side would look really pretty bad.

Don't ask why I have to use that particular unit, its a can of worms that may spill anyway. Lets just say I have searched for days and weeks to find one that suits me, and if I can't use this unit I will probably have to buy used, which I'd like to avoid.

[Previologist]

Tech support told me that its normal single DIN dimensions, those measurements were for the face plate. So I ordered this

13431

What I really wanted was this:
13432
Not because I needed an integrated CD player (I can always AUX it) but because I much prefer a tuning knob over push buttons. But while 24v units like those abound, there are few to none of the 12v units with 2 knobs left on the planet that aren't spoken for.

I could go into long detail about my search for a unit with a retro look, subdued backlight and 2 knobs, but that market basically boils down to Continental and Custom Radio Corp, but the latter is out of business.

[Previologist]

If you thought I started this thread to show you pictures of my new unit, and not to pick your brains about how to install it properly, you were sadly mistaken. I may be more comfortable with struts, sliding doors and tie rods now, but I still hate electricity and anything with more than two wires attached.

As near as I can tell without tearing off panels, I have 6 speakers: a tweeter on each side of the dash, a something in each door (presumably, but...) and a something in each side of the back, right about in front of the tires.

First problems are, when I tested the previous unit before removing it,

1) Both dash tweeters seem to work
2) I had no sound from the driver's door
3) The passenger door speaker sounded reasonably good
4) the drivers side rear speaker works, but is wired incorrectly as the "right/passenger" side in the balance control
5) no sound at all from the right rear no matter where the balance control is

Rather than start tearing things apart looking for broken wires or missing speakers I thought I should hook up the new unit for some testing first, which sounds easy to you but is not easy for me. I think I will probably need to buy some Metra adapters but holy moly, this stuff is like quantum mechanics to. It all just looks like sphaghettification.

Here is how the previous unit is **supposed** to be hooked up, but a) I don't know if it was hooked up correctly and b) I don't know which of these is the correct diagram that they should have used for the installed setup. And making matters more fun, the colored wires don't match up nicely with the new ISO harnesses, but more on that later.



13442

13443

and here is what little information they give me in the manual for the new one.


13444

It did come with ISO harnesses, but it will not be a quick and easy hookup for me, as I will try to explain later. But I just got word that my coil has been switched to the new strut so I am off to the shop to get that. TBC...

[man_btc]

Did you ever solve your light-dimming problem? If not, continuing supply voltage drops may play havoc with a radio install even if you get all the speaker wiring correct. All the experimenting and discussion surrounding that issue was pretty basic and as I recall you decided to declare victory and retreat given other more pressing issues.

I assume you also have a "woofer" speaker panel on the side of the rear compartment as well?

Is the ("RMS" - think of it as the average, sustainable) power your new unit puts out adequate to drive the speakers you have? Do you have a separate amplifier mounted in the passenger footwell? In that case the outputs of the original head unit went there and then the amp itself powers the speakers. Oft-times a bad channel can be traced to bad components in that amplifier, since that's where the bigger currents are found (and nothing kills components like heat over time). If you have to get a replacement, that's a whole other investigation which can also involve extra work like running a new fused supply wire to it if the power is more than what the van wiring was designed for.

Are you prepared to replace speakers if they don't work, or are really crappy-sounding? It involves a lot of pulling off interior panels and potentially fabricating brackets for mounting points that don't match the originals.

Have you taken the van to an audio shop to see how much they might charge to do the conversion for you? IMO it may be too much to deal with for someone who is very uncomfortable & inexperienced with basic electrical work, especially if there's been modifications/hacks along the way to troubleshoot.

For DIYing I'll put in a plug for Crutchfield while I'm here as well. Excellent support and install guides although they may not offer the configuration you're looking for and even then it still helps to understand something about things like AC vs DC power and impedence-matching to not wind up with something "marginal" after all your work.

I guess I'm concerned that this has the potential to be a real time-energy-&-money pit if just attaching a conversion harness doesn't do the trick.

[Previologist]

Ah, questions, good! I can answer some of those.


Did you ever solve your light-dimming problem? If not, continuing supply voltage drops may play havoc with a radio install even if you get all the speaker wiring correct. All the experimenting and discussion surrounding that issue was pretty basic and as I recall you decided to declare victory and retreat given other more pressing issues.

You remember mostly correctly. I did decide to retreat, but it was a surrender not a victory. I still have dimming issues, but they don't bother me anymore. Now here's a random fun thought: what if the janky audio system is the cause of it? :cnfsd: I don't recall if I tested that theory or not, but I may have.




I assume you also have a "woofer" speaker panel on the side of the rear compartment as well?

Yes those are the rear speakers I mentioned in the area just behind the sliding door on both sides, although only one side works. There is nothing further back than that. And I just made some discoveries-using a flashlight I saw that the surround on the non-functioning rear speaker is completely gone. The side that works looks good. And my non-functioning driver's door speaker has become completely dislodged, and its surround is gone too.




Is the ("RMS" - think of it as the average, sustainable) power your new unit puts out adequate to drive the speakers you have? Do you have a separate amplifier mounted in the passenger footwell? In that case the outputs of the original head unit went there and then the amp itself powers the speakers. Oft-times a bad channel can be traced to bad components in that amplifier, since that's where the bigger currents are found (and nothing kills components like heat over time). If you have to get a replacement, that's a whole other investigation which can also involve extra work like running a new fused supply wire to it if the power is more than what the van wiring was designed for.

There is no amp in the van, although I have one from my 93 if I were to need one. There are harnesses for a Toyota amp down in the footwell. But I don't think I will need them. The old unit had 50wpc and the new one is 41.


Are you prepared to replace speakers if they don't work, or are really crappy-sounding? It involves a lot of pulling off interior panels and potentially fabricating brackets for mounting points that don't match the originals.

Have you taken the van to an audio shop to see how much they might charge to do the conversion for you? IMO it may be too much to deal with for someone who is very uncomfortable & inexperienced with basic electrical work, especially if there's been modifications/hacks along the way to troubleshoot.

I am not averse to replacing some or all speakers. I thought about starting this job by pulling everything apart to get a look at the wiring and speakers, or what I call "going Full Njordi" but I thought I should test the new unit first to see if it miraculously made my missing speakers work. But that was before I made my flashlight discoveries. Now it seems I have to get at at least 2 of the speakers before doing anything else.

I also don't have a problem taking it to shop if necessary for wiring the receiver, but I'd like to make sure its necessary first. I feel like I can handle speakers and speaker wiring myself, although I could prove myself wrong. But this is not a rush jog, I have all summer and most of fall. .


For DIYing I'll put in a plug for Crutchfield while I'm here as well. Excellent support and install guides although they may not offer the configuration you're looking for and even then it still helps to understand something about things like AC vs DC power and impedence-matching to not wind up with something "marginal" after all your work.

I guess I'm concerned that this has the potential to be a real time-energy-&-money pit if just attaching a conversion harness doesn't do the trick.

I did look at Crutchfield because they offer full support if you buy from them. But they didn't have anything I wanted. I don't like flying saucers designed by 12 year old sugar junkies flashing and ticker taping across my dash.

[Previologist]

I pulled out the right rear speaker. Its a 5 1/4" full flanged Tenvox, 86160-95006, a number which doesn't seem to have ever existed. The OEM number I come up with for my 97 DX is 86160-28350, which is still available for far more than I will pay for it. But Crutchfield (and others) has a number of options, and I should replace both sides. The right side was pretty easy to get at, once I realized the 3rd seat had to come off. I didn't even need to remove the panel completely, but the left side might not be quite as easy.

The old speaker is 4 ohm, 15 watt. My new receiver says "suitable speaker impedance" is 4 ohm. So I guess 4 ohm it shall be.

With the receiver putting out 41w per channel Max, what speaker wattage should I be looking at? Do I need larger wattage speakers? I haven't fully wrapped my head around RMS, wattage, sensitivity, etc but I'm trying.

[man_btc]

What matters most with speakers is RMS. It's how much power the speakers can comfortably use at normal volume. The peak wattage is what power the speakers could handle without damage for short periods and is considered to be mostly a marketing feature. Think of that 110mph mark on your speedometer.

"Impedance" is complicated and relates to the resistance to current flow that varies with the frequency of the signal. The basic rule is you want to have the impedance match as well as possible between driver and speaker as that allows the most efficient transfer of power.

Speaker sensitivity relates to how well the absorbed electrical power in the speaker turns into sound vibrations in the air (which is what counts vs just heating up stuff up inside the speaker). I seem to recall 95% is a good threshold, but there's no shortage of interweb audio rabbit holes to go down lo learn more...

[Previologist]

I pulled the door speaker out of my junk 93 to practice for doing the 97. The 93 speaker is in good condition, and I know it works because I hooked it up to my bookshelf speaker in the house which is currently wanting for a woofer. It mounts on a bracket screwed into the magnet instead of by the perimeter flange, (but the bracket can be removed and it has the same flange) and has a different part # but otherwise its identical to my bad one, so I hooked it up where the bad one was in the 97 and it did not work. So I either I have wiring problems or that circuit is kablooey in the old stereo. I Guess now I will have to test for continuity and/or power at the unit and in the wire, which will be a new learning experience.

[Previologist]

Got me a Metra 70-1761 harness and hooked it up. I got pretty lucky; it was a perfect matchup to the ISo harness the unit came with, although there is one extra wire in the previous harness that I didn't use. According to the manual for the old unit it should "Connect to system control terminal of the power amp or auto-antenna relay control terminal (max. 300 mA 12 V DC)." Whatever that means. But that wire just wanders off somewhere to the passenger wall, where there is no power amp and no antenna relay, and disappears on its way to somewhere.

But I don't think I care much. I hooked up the unit and it works. I also hooked up the 93 speaker again in the rear, and it worked, so I got lucky again. Sounds pretty decent too. More work to do though because it powers off at 3/4 volume, so either there's a short or other wiring issue, or just inadequate speakers for the new unit. I might still need professional help (for the van) But things look promising. I've even toyed with the idea of swapping interior panels from my 93 LE because it is set up with the rear woofers that my DX lacks, but I'm not feeling quite that ambitious yet. I usually travel with the 3rd seats folded up, which kind of chokes out the rear speakers anyway.

[Previologist]

Here's what I found in my driver door.

13453

At least the metal was still there.

Has anyone ever pulled the tweeters from the dash? I haven't really looked into how its done because I assume its a horrible job that I don't want (but don't I always say that?). I still have to get at the left side mid-rear speaker and right door, but the tweeters are looming large in the dark shadows of my mind. They both work, or at least emit sound, but if I don't find my shorting problem after I've looked at the two remaining speakers...

[Previologist]

Forget it. I'll just disconnect them.

https://youtu.be/RfCmrIa9ncE

[man_btc]

I'll just disconnect them.
The time I did that (as part of a partial dash removal,)* I wore gloves because the foam around the connectors was pretty goop-ey.

*I never got the dash completely off while monkeying with various innards (primarily the fuse panel) over the years; I would pull it out past a certain point, hear the sound of aged plastic creaking and groaning, panic and stop when there was sufficient access. For all I know I didn't disconnect something I should have - there's typically that one thing that gets missed and makes it's presence known with a loud snap if you're impatient

Do you have a wiring diagram for the sound system harness? I mention that because I think I recall the tweeters aren't driven separately from the head unit - they're on the same circuit as the door speakers with a "high-pass" filter that only allows high-frequency sounds go to them and cutting them off may also cut off the wiring path to the door speakers. I'll check later when I have time if that's some info you need, with the caveat that I have the wiring for a '92 "Premium" (or whatever it was called) speaker arrangement.

13454

[Previologist]

My driver door speaker was very gooey. It was actually held in very tightly by strong, stretchy goo even after I removed the screws.I had to pry it out. Last night I made my way to the driver side rear (mid) speaker. It was pretty easy. One thing that was really thoughtful of them is that Toyota used a different connector on every speaker. :no:

I don't think I've seen my van's wiring schematic. It may be in my FSM, I dunno but I'll check. I have a feeling it will be necessary to know how those tweeters are wired, in series or parallel. There are multiple threads on the web with people having this very same (or similar) shut-off problem with this very same Continental unit. Suggestions are all over the place, and some haven't solved it, but multiple people suggest the speakers must be in series. But I have no idea if that's correct. Seems iffy. And I may be getting in over my head. At last check my driver side tweeter is not working, I don't know if I was wrong about it working in the first place or if something I have done caused it to stop. Did I mention I may be getting in over my head? But I will press on for now, carefully.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/15k4dlj/hi_my_continental_tr7412ubor_radio_keeps_shutting/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/gof2jo/car_speakers_cut_out_at_high_volume_when_i_lower/
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/1213012-issues-with-continental-vdo-stereo-2.html
and more...

[man_btc]

The dash tweeters and door speakers appear to be wired in parallel via crimp points behind the dash, so one is not dependent on the other.

The FSM doesn't have electrical wiring diagrams - those are in the Toyota Technical Information System (https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/appmanager/t3/ti?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ti_home_page&goto=https%3A%2F%2Ftechinfo.toyota.com%3A443%2Fage nt%2Fcustom-login-response%3Fstate%3DFon6UUnQngrXicbbt3M0S-pcrsI&original_request_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftechinfo.toyota .com%3A443%2F), where you can view/download individual sections of the electrical manual. Here is the main diagram for my original system. Another section shows the location of harnesses and connections - for a 1992 LE Alltrac.

[Previologist]

Thank you. My computer died, and I now have electrical issues again so I haven't gotten back to this. My battery is registering as partially discharged, but its barely a year and a half old. I need to unplug the radio and see if it is a drain, but I don't have time now. Radio is a low priority for now, will get back to this later.

[Previologist]

The gods have smiled on me, for once. At least for now. I unhooked both rear speakers and replaced both door speakers with el cheapos from the big blue store, and it works. Ran it for 5 minutes at high volume and it didn't cut out once. Very encouraging.

[Previologist]

They hate me again. Took a drive tonight and it shut off/restarted when I hit the brakes. But I'm also only getting about 13.15 volts at the battery with the engine running, so maybe my alternator is finally failing for real. That might be a good thing. Will test it again tomorrow.

[Previologist]

Naturally today its running within normal range, albeit toward the low end, from 13.8 with no load and 13.6 with lights and blower on. And hitting the brakes did not turn the radio off. Was kinda hoping it would act like last night again. Sigh.

My same-age 97 4runner gets 14.3 under the same running conditions. Both show 12.6 at rest.

So this suggests I have an nagging issue that won't fully break, but I've known that for years.

Back to the audio, I may buy an inexpensive filter and fuse capacitor thingie it helped at least one person with shutoff issues with this same head unit.