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OK so i am in this deep..rad out, alt out, power steering pump that leaked out, and the engine has just under 200K, i am building this van to make a run to the tip of south america and back to western Oregon without ANY problems...so the ? is..where to stop. should i go in past the timing seal and remove the cover to replace the gears & chain..actually seems like the smart thing to do while i have it this far apart..what would you do???? just curious...:)>:
I would consider things like the thermostat, hoses, the TPS, 02 sensor(s), water pump, etc a higher priority. Of course I'm assuming you're doing things like belts and tune-up stuff for sure.
The timing set can go much much farther than 200k without issue, but over time the chains get loose. If you have already replaced the other items I mentioned, and still have the time/money to do the timing set, since you're in this far I would do it.......at least then you can feel at ease when you're out away from home. Good luck and enjoy your trip! Sounds like quite an adventure. Take lots of pics for your blog and let us know how it goes. Tim
Update: Here's some important information regarding aftermarket timing sets: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...2491#post12491
Hey Tim, thanks for the response. I have already replaced some of the stuff you mentioned, like the cap & rotor, plugs, and now that im in there all the belts & hoses...including the death hose..one thing that i was wondering...is there any test i can do to give me a clue about the condition of the timing set? the deeper i go the more i want to make it right so i can avoid going back in for awhile...and any breakdowns..emma never started right up and i figure if i do everything i can i may solve that. if not i will take it to a pro...Hum...Battleground isn't far from Jewell...need any extra work? as for the trip it is more of a dream than anything else right now...i was trying for this on a motorcycle but due to my shoulder being a pain the van is more realistic. i will do the water pump and am thinking of pulling both drivelines and getting "real" u joints. potter webster in Longview did a good job on my f150 driveline. i just got the big pulley off today and it dosen't have any grove worn in it. a good sign i hope. j
Not much chance of getting me do do anything. I have piles upon piles of unfinished things that need to be done. Anymore my life is about running the business and putting out fires. Successful one employee businesses can suck in that regard (sorry). A sign the timing set is worn is a slapping sound emanating from the front of the engine (typically loudest when cold). Still, I've seen these go for a long long time with this condition, so if you haven't noticed it yet then it's probably okay. When the tensioner is extended all the way and the chain is still loose the slapping sound occurs. Excessive slack is usually a combination of a stretched chain, worn gears, and a worn tensioner. The tensioner has a contact pad on the end and that's what usually gets the brunt of the wear. If it gets really bad, contact with the timing cover can occur. Here's a picture of one that was really bad. Note the grooves on the right side of the aluminum timing cover:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps751ce311.jpg
Regarding drive-lines here's an article that may help. Tim http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/c...s-and-u-joints
thanks for the awesome website and all that you do to keep the toy vans alive in the world! without your much appreciated info i would be much less likely to ever get traveling:yes:
Thanks for the kudos. This is what I do when I'm supposed to be doing something else :wnk:. Right now I'm in the middle of a tiresome inventory project. I check the forum every hr or so and post instead of working :)>:.
This is on my list of things to do.
I checked with my local dealer and all the bits (gears, chain, tensioners and guides, seals and gaskets) are available for the better part of $400.
( I am aware that I could get OEM from the US but by the time it gets dutied, shipped and taxed there isn't much difference)
Happened to be over at Rock Auto looking for some other things and noticed that they have complete timing sets for anything from $40-100. (OSK, B/A...)
Then I went looking for Canadian sources and found an OSK listing that can be had for $100 landed.
I am torn.
I know there is nothing better than OEM.(in terms of life span)
I also know every time I try to make do with A/M parts it never works out favourably for me.
Still torn, toss $400 worth of new parts on an old engine or toss in $100 of cheap parts and pray they last longer than the rest of the engine.
My tensioner is tired, I am sure the chains/gears are worn, the chain can be noisy at times and the timing mark is moving about.
I know a tight chain will solve many headaches not too mention improving performance.
If it was the only pending repair, it would be different, but the repairs are many and the resources few.
Scottish ancestry doesn't help.
Then again every time I take the cheap way out, I end up asking myself "when will I learn".
Damn, still torn.
Anybody installed any of these units and put significant miles down on them, can they be expected to last?
Are some manufacturers better than others or are they all out of the same plant then branded?
I am not interested in tossing in parts that are only going to fail again within 1-2 yrs.
Thanks
BB
hmm,,I've done a fair # of TC's over the years,,never bothered with OEM's,,,never had an 'issue' for that.
....perhaps I've been lucky,,but it's a 3-4 hour job for moderate skills and knowledge,so long as you've got a mechanic's book.
.....and what a huge difference in engine power you'll notice if your current one is 'rattling'!!!
...$100-120 sounds right!
I understand the struggle with A/M vs OEM. Now with many OEM parts becoming unavailable I've started "sampling" A/M. Some things like rebuilt alternators and cheap tune-up parts have left me disappointed, but so far the "hard parts" like water pumps, rotors, calipers, wheel cylinders, etc seem to be okay. I purchased some Beck-Arnley water pumps from one of those Rock Auto "close-out" sales and was very happy. They were actually new (not rebuilt) OEM pumps in B/A boxes. On the flip side I also purchased an A1-Cardone water pump that was rebuilt. Rebuilt is generally okay, but this thing looked like they drug it behind a car for a few miles.
I haven't purchased an aftermarket timing set for a van yet but I did for an old high mileage Previa. My reasoning for this was the same as yours (couldn't justify OEM prices for a high mileage / worn-out engine). The brand I ended up with was Camellia / Tsubaki (a Japanese brand) and it was dirt cheap (compared to OEM). I expected crap but was impressed with the visual quality. Of course I can't know things like hardness of metals but the machine work was good and everything was nicely deburred and chamfered. Everything fit perfect and the vehicle ran well after the job. I sold it shortly after, so I can't comment on longevity.
IMO, if you could save 50% or more with aftermarket, considering the age and miles of your engine, I'd probably take a chance with AM. In general I've been pretty impressed with Beck-Arnley, so I'd probably try them. Tim
Hey micah or anyone,
what would the chain "rattling" sound be? I have a low rattling sound(diesel-like) at low rpm's that I thought was just the muffler touching the bellhousing. It goes away when I give it the slightest bit of gas. Is that possible the timing chain? Lots of power though.
My 1989 toyota pickup timing chain went bad at about 190,000 and cut a hole through a part of the engine, leaking oil- but it was a higher almost pinging sound from the loose link hitting one spot over and over.
Mine is annoyingly intermittent, but is more consistent after long highway drives followed by a little idling, like stopping at a drive-thru.I spent a long time looking for that loose exhaust clamp, I was SURE that was the sound.Ran some sea foam through it for other reasons and the noise disappeared for about a week.It is a little more consistent now and you can sometimes hear it with a stethoscope on the timing cover.Most suspect of all though it the timing mark jumping around a few degrees.That, and sometimes big hills was require a downshift (really feels like it isn't getting full advance which, it likely isn't)I suspect you are all correct about the AM stuff being fine, at least now I know others have gone there before me.ThanksBB
personally,,I don't really get into the details of analyzing sounds etc,,,just know that if I find slack in the chain by rotating the engine watching the rotor,,,a HUGE difference comes for doing this reletively straightforward job,,,with a big bonus of checking/overhauling the radiator at the same time:wnk:Quote:
Originally Posted by djshimon
I went A/M with my timing chain/sprocket set. 23,000 km on it so far. :thmbup:
Its so hard to diagnose noises on the internet without an isolated sample, and even then its better to be with the vehicle using a mechanics stethoscope or a long screwdriver. In my experience, chain/guide/tensioner slap usually manifests after you've let off the accelerator or at idle. Note: I've never heard it on a 3Y/4Y, only on my buddy's 22R.Quote:
Originally Posted by djshimon
(Of course the 22R is an OHC engine, using a single roller chain with a plastic backed chain guide that usually breaks. Luckily, our vans inherited a pretty stout timing package from Toyota, the simple joys of pushrod engines.)
More commonly, when the engine is cold, you'll hear lots of valvetrain chatter. Sticky hydraulic lifters are usually the culprit. Does the sound go away when the engine is at operation temp?
Regardless, doing a timing chain jobby isn't too bad, and in some ways its kind of fun.
I only hear the sound at idle, and that's when it's below 700 rpms. Can't remember if that's hot or cold. Nice to know our enginesI'll wait on this one-too many other jobs to do before summer. Thanks for the information.Quote:
inherited a pretty stout timing package from Toyota
Quote:
Originally Posted by djshimon
Rebuilt my 87 van about 30K ago and used a timing chain from Rock Auto. It was a close-out item and very cheap. On inspection, it looked good. Made in Japan and appeared identical to my old one, which I assume was the original. Neither chain said "Toyota" on it but both had the same identifying letters stamped into the side plates. So far, no problems with the timing chain, pistons or bearings.
micah - does one need to pull the rad in order to replace the chain et al, I am guessing so, but hoping not.
After rereading my original post, especially the part about "when will I learn", I have bent over and ordered the factory parts.
While I appreciate the A/M stuff is of good quality, the shipping costs outweigh the savings if I run into a problem and even the local (a/m) guys
consider it SO parts, so I get to buy them before inspecting and if wrong, it will still be my problem.
As I always end of with parts boxed wrong, missing or damaged seals...
I seriously think that Murphy was a close relative of mine.
Removing the radiator is not required but I would recommend it because the extra room is more valuable than the effort of removing. Since your van is a 5 speed, there will be no transmission coolant lines to deal with. All you have is the radiator hoses, two lower mount nuts, and the single top mount bolt. Of course there's the coolant mess to deal with, but usually not so bad. If it's not due to be replaced you can always catch it in a clean drip pan and pour it back in after. Tim
If I'm planning to re-use the coolant, I've found it helpful to use automotive paint filters. Whenever I'm getting paint supplies, I pick up a pile of these filters since they're free and they work so well for filtering antifreeze. These are conical fliters that sit right in a funnel and can usually be reused once or twice. Not sure of the particle size but they're pretty fine and clean the coolant very nicely.
.... consider the time spent removing the rad is -free labor- on accessing ,inspecting ,pressure testing the rad ,and overhauling the cooling system,,,belts and hoses....fan clutchQuote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
----------all ESSENTIAL components of a long-lasting romance!!!
....not to mention the time you'll -save- with better access for the TC job
.......make 'friends' with your 'baby',,,she'll love you for it!!:yes: :yes::yes:
......also a good time to give the engine a shampoo'n'scrub:wnk:
I hear what you are saying Micah
I keep trying to make friends with it, but it was neglected by it's PO and is now testing my patience, not too mention my pocket book.
Actually, in this case, it isn't "free" labour as I have already done ALL that stuff.
But I know that the "easy" way rarely is, one slip is all it would take to add a new rad to the already too long list of parts that have been replaced.
"Red" was supposed to a replacement for my turtle, but has demanded more "attention" in 2 years, than it's little brother has in 8.
If this were the LAST thing on the list, it wouldn't be so bad, but I fear the forecast is just more of the same, at least in the near future.
At least the weather is cooperating.
And I am STILL waiting for her to start showing some love back!
CLICK HERE to view my most recent experience with a timing set.........yes it was aftermarket (1st aftermarket set I've used on a 4y). I haven't tried Beck Arnley yet, but after this experience I'm leaning more towards recommending OEM. Tim
Update: I have now tried the Beck Arnley brand and it was a PITA CLICK HERE for more information.
I've run Tsubaki chains on my old panhead and they have served me well. Like you said, they seem to be a quality product and the fact that they've been around for almost a hundred years has to say something. I've been comfortable with aftermarket parts most of the time, but I'm sure glad I listened to your OEM thermostat recommendation. Who'd a thunk :thmbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
I'm having abit of confusion on what exactly is dealer item and what is aftermarket. Is www.discounttoyotaparts.net parts considered aftermarket or dealer? How bout http://www.toyotapartszone.com? I'm sure I must be missing a few retail merchandizers out there, but you get the drift. Are we making the distinction when we say "dealer item" or is something understood that I'm not picking up?
Basically there's two categories of car parts: OE (Original Equipment) and AM (After Market). OE parts are built by the auto manufacturer or by a manufacturer they have a contract with. These contracts require the manufacturers to meet predetermined quality specifications. AM parts are built outside the OE loop and are typically less expensive. They are not contractually controlled by the auto manufacturer so the quality may suffer. What's OE & AM can get a bit confusing at times. If you purchase OE then you have the assurance of getting a degree of quality similar to the original part. When you purchase AM you may or may not get the same quality (it's a roll of the dice).
On the older vehicles (like our vans) sometimes the auto manufacturer or their OE manufacturer will decide to decrease their inventory on pre-built parts. The reasons can vary, but it's typically due to demand (why stock 4,000 4y water pumps and take up valuable warehouse space when you're only selling 5 per week?). At some point it makes more sense to dump the slow moving inventory and replace it with the stuff that moves. When they dump inventory it's usually AM companies like Beck Arnley that buy it out for pennies on the dollar. Then they simply pack it into their box's and sell to the public at a discounted price. Sometimes AM companies like Beck Arnley will purchase parts from OE at normal prices just so they can offer complete product lines. In some instances you will actually pay more for an AM part, but end up with OE (it's just gone through another middle man).
In some cases the OE manufacturer (the one building parts for the auto manufacturer) will sell the same parts to the public that they sell to the auto manufacturer. This is good for consumers because we can get OE quality without paying the auto manufacturer's mark-up. This is true with many Denso & Aisin products. If you know which products they supplied to Toyota and you can find them elsewhere, you can get the same thing for less money (it will however not come in a box that says "Toyota").
Then there are the AM parts that give the rest a bad name. These range from crappy rebuilds to junk reproductions. They are often built with sub-standard materials and/or are assembled with poor workmanship. Not all AM suppliers are the same. Some (like Beck Arnley) generally sell decent stuff.........sometimes not. Other AM suppliers generally sell crap......sometimes not. When you purchase from AM suppliers you could end up with OE quality, crap, or anything in-between...........basically "a roll of the dice".
Generally websites that say the word "Toyota" in them only sell OE Toyota parts (both of the ones you mentioned above only sell genuine Toyota). Auto parts stores like Auto Zone or Napa only sell AM. Often times they will sell OE quality parts, sometimes not. Napa typically gives you a choice. They have their "premium brand" and their "economy brand". These terms are code for "OE quality" or "do I feel lucky?". Tim
Thanks for the thorough explanation on this Tim. I knew most of it, but was kinda clueless about the venders with "Toyota" in their names. It would be nice to get a complete list of these venders if possible. Maybe even have a little feedback on them would be nice. Also if there's some kind of parts they are blowing out, would be great to be able to notify all that on that thread, or whatever it would evolve to.
If I could help in building that up, let me know.
Okay, am finally getting into this, good thing too, as I found I had 8 degrees crankshaft movement before the rotor starts turning.
Of course the rad is also out being recored....
Tim - after reading your blog I am so glad I got the factory stuff, that kind of a headache would have made me go round the bend.
Question regarding the placement of the timing chain guide, should the guide be positioned against the chain or have some clearance and if so, how much?
As the guide is installed prior to the chain, I torqued it at the farthest away position, with the chain and gears on I have a good 1mm between the guide and chain, am guessing it should be a lot less than that but I don't like guessing.
Thanks
BB
The book didn't specify any special mounting or adjustment for the vibration damper..........It just said install & torque, so I just centered it and cranked it down. It's pretty much just there to keep the chain from flapping around, so I'd wan't it to be close, but not touching.......which is how mine ended up. I probably wouldn't worry too much about it either way as it can only be adjusted about .050" from one extreme to the other. I just wouldn't want it rubbing on the chain when static. Even then it would wear grooves pretty quick and stop touching :)>:. Tim
Thanks Tim, that is kinda what I figured, but wanted a 2nd opinion.
I will centre the guide, just to be safe.
Been a long time since I played with timing chains.
BB
This just keeps getting better.
I had gone through the parts I received but I guess I just checked the invoice not the actual parts.
So now I find myself without a timing cover gasket even though paid for one.
Wont be able to get one until tuesday at best and everything is ready to bolt together now.
As much as I hate to replace gaskets with goop, I do have a new tube of Toyota FIPG.
Would that be a stupid move, should I wait for proper parts, I would really hate to button it up and find myself with a leak.
Even gasket paper (if I can find it) is a min 1 hour trip.
While I don't want to wait, I also don't want to do this twice.
For the record, I "saved" $100 by buying the parts form a florida dealer while my sister was there on vacation.
That said, the rear shocks they sent are for a 2wd, they forgot to bill/send a timing gear (fortunately I noticed that) and billed me for a gasket
they didn't send.
No response from calls or e-mails.
Another lesson learned, buying local only seems expensive.
That's a hard call. I have a hard time trusting FIPG as the only barrier (even on the oil pan). Toyota does this at the factory and it seems to be okay, so I do it too. But the oil pan has a pretty wide surface area........not so much with the timing cover. It might work out fine but I'd try to put something besides FIPG there. This particular gasket is pretty thin, so it would't be too hard to make (assuming you can get the appropriate material).
I hate situations like this. When doing a rebuild these type things can hold you up for months. I can only work on mine during the weekends and it seems that every Saturday morning I find there's something else I need (something that will take over a week to get) :(:. I feel your pain. Good luck with whatever you decide. Tim
I don't feel good about relying on a gasketless joint either.
Seems to me I learned that lesson once before.
If it wasn't so deep in I may take a chance but fate being what it is....
Called the dealer and it is 5-7 business days away and they can't order it until monday.
Found a local outfit that will supply a timing gasket kit for $20, be in monday.
Will pick up some paper while I am there just in case.
I realized that while I would have liked to finish at least one job before tearing other things apart,
I do have plenty to keep be busy till then.
BB
That's why I keep a complete 4y Toyota Gasket set on hand. Whenever something like this happens I steal the gasket I need, then re-order just the one to replace. Of course there's always something else to delay my projects. I know what you mean about "having plenty to do till then". Tim
I'm thinking about doing that with the timing set from RockAuto. They have one timing set left from BECK/ARNLEY for less than $25! Thinking about buying the last one. I was amazed at what the set consisted of. Complete set including chain, two gears, tensioner, chain guide, crankshaft seal, and more gaskets you can shake a stick at! All from Japan! I got my kit, I was just thinking of buying another so I could sell it eventually! :rol:
So I finally got this all back together, along with a recored rad, engine and radiator mounts, water pump, ALL the hoses and a myriad of other little stuff. Don't ask how long it took, I didn't keep track but am pretty sure I spent at least 4 hours just on cleaning.
End result is it runs WAY better, gets better mileage and has more power.
Many of the annoying noises were cured, of course there are "new" ones that I can now hear, but that seems to be par for the course.
Of note, the old engine mounts were heavily compressed (1/4" on the right, 5/16" on the LS) not too mention the LS being mostly separated.
Now the engine sits higher and has more clearance around important things like wiring harnesses...
What I had thought was driveline play has also disappeared.
All in all, a worthwhile repair and money well spent.
BB
I had a rattling timing chain at all speeds replacing this made my mpg go up by 4mpg and has much more power. Van now passes emissions test easily
I probably need to do this in my 86. Then again, I need to do a lot of things to that. :yes:. Thanks for the tip!
I dont know what a rattling chain would sound like, but it seems like mine runs great at 370K. My mechanic said I dont need to worry about it and that the design that it has is made to last forever so I guess ill keep truckin along.
JPERL for various reasons I am considering doing my timing chain as well. Which components did you use? Did you buy an aftermarket set? I just looked at the manual and the job looked a little daunting to me, especially the using the SST tool to remove the pulley. Also, it looks like I should have just done this while I was doing my lifters! Do I really have to take the top down to the lifters in order to inspect/replace the chain? Not that big of a deal but geez.
How do you guys rate the difficulty of doing this in my driveway?
It's not that bad, especially if you pull the radiator (gives you more room). After that, pull the fan & belts. Then it's just getting the crankshaft pulley out of the way and the timing cover. No reason to pull the head, it's all from the front. To get a better grasp on things, here's a link that should help : http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/e...ebuild-part-11
make sure you also replace the little guardy thing that keeps it from slapping the inside of the case. i imagine the ''timing chain noise" we hear is really the slapping on the case cuz the guardy thing has fallen off. you will find this little rectangle in the lower portion of the chain case. anyone have similar experience?