Ball joints, tire wear, steering wheel vibration!

Mark - Just behind the front cross member is a round tube that runs side to side. Welded to it (on either side) is a square bracket. Put your jack stand on that point. You can also go ahead of the fr axle where the front frame rail splits into a Y, have never used that position as my stands aren't that tall. Its is easily visible with the wheels on.
all detailed in the owners handbook as well. Generally you want the stands as far outboard as possible, I wouldn't try to put them where the jack goes
as there isn't enough width to be safe.
BB

I usually jack from the front cross-member that's under the radiator. You can put jack-stands anywhere under the sub-frame, but try to avoid areas that slope (stands can slip). I usually use the sway bar mounts (place where sway bar mounts to the sub-frame) & put the mount brackets into the grooved parts of my jack stands. Of course you need taller heavy duty jack stands for this as these locations are already pretty high up. As for the back, jack from under the differential and put the jack stands under the axle as far outboard as possible. The big thing to remember is "safety 1st". Whenever I'm not sure about the stability of a vehicle I grab it and give it a good shake before I climb under (or put any part of my body in harm's way). If it's solid then I feel safe. If it sways then I'll try something different. If shaking it makes it fall, then whatever........I'd rather it fall BEFORE I get under :dizzy:.

PS: Never jack from the front differential. Be very careful about using wood blocks for spacers & NEVER use bricks, concrete or cinder blocks (as they can break without warning). Tim

Okay I finally got both front wheels off the ground today at the same time so I could really try to diagnose this issue.

The rubber boot came off without too much trouble. I could not detect any play on either inner or out tie rods, nothing. Its tight. No leaking fluids, the inner which I took the boot off looked really clean and greased.

I did feel out the components in the steering system for play or "feel" or sound, the best that I can detect is there's some play in the arm and linkage that goes from the rack to the steering thingy that has another arm attached that goes to the steering wheel. I don't know what these components are called but I took a pic to show. When my wife moved the wheel back and forth I can feel play here, just a touch, but its the only other play I can detect anywhere. Re-checked both ball joints again too while the wheels were up, no play.

What am I looking at here? What is this rod or arm and who do I eliminate play in it? Seems like it might be the cause of my steering wheel vibration, who knows?!

markAttachment 801

That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

Yeah I found out about the bevel gear recall through some searching, I can't find the official bulletin so I'm having a hard time finding out what years it covers, I know I've read 86-87 and I've got an 87

Its really hard to tell if the play is in the gear housing or the joint, for sure I've isolated it to that spot, in fact I had my wife hold the steering wheel in place to lock everything up and thats where the play was in the whole system, and she even said that when I was moving the rod around that it felt like the vibration we get when the speeds get over 55 or so.

It will be really funny to call the local Toyo dealer about a possible recall fix!

Also, what is the technical name for the U joint/shaft if I determine the play is there? I looked at some places like Rock Auto and there's no mention of this part, probably something I'd have to source from Toyota or second hand.

thanks for the help, hopefully I can put an end to this problem before the snow hits here in Maine!!

mark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burntboot

That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

---

My manual references that part as the "torque shaft" and yes, it would likely be a dealer item only (or scrap yard).

IIRC, the campaign was referenced in one of the threads (perhaps it was on the other site??), I think it was Trestlehead that linked to it.
(I no longer have a copy on file)
I believe it applies up to 87, maybe even a few early 88's but mine was past the vin break and Toyo Canada verified there were no outstanding recalls.

I would be inclined to contact Toyota head office (USA) to find out status of your van and wether or not it has been actioned, sometimes individual dealers will be less than receptive to such enquiries.
There is a reasonably good chance you will be able to get some help on this, assuming that the recall is outstanding.

If the play is in the shaft, you should be able to feel the play within the u-joint in the shaft, itself.
If you place your hand on the output of the BG, holding the housing and the shaft with one hand, then work the shaft up and down.
You will know right away of the play is within the gear itself.
While it may be hard to see, you WILL be able feel it by holding both parts with one hand.
While it is somewhat possible that the wear is in the splines on the end of the joint where it meets rack or BG, they usually seize on there, not get loose.
Unless there was some sort of impact, I can't see the fault being there.
Odds are, it is the bevel gear itself.
Good luck.
BB

Okay so I just got back from running some errands and had a moment before the rain to get under the van and REALLY figure out where the play is coming from. Yesterday I ruled out the rest of the steering system but I had SUCH an awful time getting the rack boot back on w/ clamp that I didn't have the patience to go any further.

So today I discovered that the play really is in the arm or joint ABOVE the bevel gear. The reason i can feel it in the torque shaft is because everything is connected i guess. Anyway I couldn't really verify if it was the U joints with the play or the actual shaft itself, the light was bad but I could swear I could see the shaft itself having play when I moved it. My flashlight is out of batteries and its raining so its hard to see.

I took a pic of the area, not sure of the terms once again. Is there a bushing or something else that would cause the maine shaft from the steering wheel to have play?

You know its funny, when I first started getting steering wheel play a long time ago I initially suspected something more directly related to the steering column. Just a hunch, I think I had a similar problem on another vehicle years ago. But everyone said check your tires, balance, alignment, etc, and then I had two different professionals tell me I had a "bad ball joint" or "bad inner or outer tie rod" even though it wasn't true, now I'm back to the beginning, maybe my hunch was right?

Any thoughts would be great. I just dug out my FSM and will peruse the steering section.

Thanks again,

mark in Maine

Attachment 802

BB, in referring to a previous response you made in this post I totally glossed over the part about worn shocks.

I just thought to myself that yes, there seems to be a small amount of play in the main steering shaft or universal joint, but what does that have to do with my worn outside left tire? The tire wear was smooth.
Does one have to remove the shocks to check them? I looked through the FSM and the procedure seems pretty straighforward, as long as the bolts come off easy enough!

maybe I'll look in to that, too.

mark

Steering column is made up of a "main shaft" with 1 U-joint, which goes from the steering wheel to about the tilt mechanism then connects to the "intermediate shaft" which has 2 U-joints.
I know when I had my BG off, the bottom end of the int. shaft was floppy (not supported).
In the manual they do reference upper and lower bearings on the main shaft, the upper bearing is in the upper bracket, not sure on the lower bearing.
Looks like a bugger to get too though, as it would likely be column out and complete tear down.

Any chance you have ever pulled the steering wheel to do other things and maybe it isn't quite tight?
In all my years I have never seen an issue in an upper column on any "old style" vehicle.
Anything with POWER tilt and telescope is a different ball of wax.

I would probably start with checking to make sure the steering wheel is actually secured to the shaft and diagnose from there.
If you are into column bearings or U-joints, you may just want to grab something at the local P&P and swap assemblies.
At least you will know how to check donor vehicles for a good unit.
BB

Okay so today I'm going back out and checking out the shocks, control arm bushings, and sway bar bushings.

As well, I have a question about checking the ball joints. I've been using the pry method, lifting the wheel and prying between the ground/tire for the upper and the rim/arm for the lower.

I don't have an official pry bar, and my "cheater" rod I use to break nuts loose won't fit right, so I've been using a piece of scrap wood to to this. I'm wondering, how hard does one pry? Because whenever I'm researching tire wear, vibrations, etc, ball joints come up first. And, I also had a mechanic in Philly tell me I had a bad lower ball joint on the drivers side (where I had tire wear)

Are there visual indicators as well for the ball joints? I'm going to dig around for a metal bar and try to pry, check for any looseness.

Oh, another thing, I don't know if this is related, but if I make a real slow, sharp turn (like turning around somewhere with the wheel turned all the way to one direction ) I get a bad clunk from up front......could this be related to some worn suspension part?

I'll update later as I check things out. I've learned alot here, I always heard of control arms and sway bars but now I actually know where they are and what they do. I've rebuilt some old engines etc but this is my first foray in to front ends.....sure do appreciate all the help!

thanks,

mark in Maine

Here is the steering bevel gear recall thread. Make sure you read the entire thread.
The link to download the official Toyota Service Campaign doesn't work.
I'll try to dig that up on my home computer and post it later.

http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum...el+gear#p55989

Thanks for the post, its good to see that the part is still available, $370!!!

I'll try to call the closest Toyota dealer tomorrow and see if my van falls in to the recall or not. Its a May '87 van.

On other fronts, I did some real inspecting today again.

Control arm bushings seem fine, all the sway bar mounts/bushings are fine, I re checked for the 4th time all the ball joints, there is no play.

When either wheel is off the ground and moved at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions the same light clunk is heard which originates around the bevel gear or shaft above or below it. I really can't tell if its in the gear housing itself or the connections or U joints, its not much play but its the source of the sound and might be the source of the steering wheel vibration.

I'm thinking I'll pull the LF shock just to rule that out, I really checked out the tire that was just up there (now in the back) and it is worn very evenly on the outside, I noted that most tire wear associated with worn shocks is more uneven/scalloped.

Also I did check the maine shaft bolt under the steering wheel cover just to be sure, it was tight.

I'm running around in circles here! I hope I don't have to break down and take it in for a 2nd opinion somewhere. There's one guy who has an aircooled VW shop that a buddy of mine used to take his old 80's Toyota van to, I might give him a ring.

I'm just wondering, is the looseness in my steering connections the source of the play/vibration or did they loosen up due to strain from what the real problem might be?

And also, are the worn outter edge of my previous LF tire associated with the steering vibration?

Man, it'll be nice to nail this one down before the turn of the new year!

thanks,

mark

I should add, although it would be really cool to have my problem be something Toyota might fix for free, it doesn't really seem that my symptoms point to a problem with the steering gear right? I mean my steering wheel doesn't have alot of play, the vehicle doesn't wander, but I do have steering wheel vibration at upper speeds and a tire worn on the outside edge.....???

mark

Oh, I did find a listing of the recal # SSCK01 for the '87-'88 vans for bevel gear housing inspection....seen on this link

http://yotavans.org/community/tips/recalls.html#5

mark

Hey Mark - You really can't get good feel using wood as a prybar. It will make it a lot harder to feel any play.
A metal bar will give a much cleaner feel. For the record, you are looking to pry between the wheel and the lower ball joint stud, not the control arm.
I have done it with both a giant screwdriver as well as a standard crow bar, the longer the bar, the easier it is.
It greatly helps to have someone stepping on the brake pedal while you're checking the ball joints, less things to hold onto.

Not sure what to advise re vibration/wear.
But going in circles is always a bad idea, you need to work through things in a logical manner, fixing and correcting as you go.
It is very important to check things properly as you go.
Prying against the control arm wont show you play in the lowers.
Proper procedure is paramount to accurate diagnosis.

While I wouldn't expect play above the bevel gear to cause tire wear it is something that needs to be addressed.
Reading tires is a lot like tea leaves. But I have always considered outboard tire wear to be a result of positive camber or excessive toe.
Have you managed to get it on a rack to see where you are to begin with?
Have you checked ride height, as it will affect camber?
Hard to know without being there.
BB

Ah the going in circles part really starts to make me crazy!

The problem is, from the very beginning of this, many many months ago when I was still in Philly, I tried to rule out the easiest/most common source of steering wheel vibration: out of balance tires. I had my tires pulled, re-balanced, and rotated by the closest Firestone place. Guess what? The steering wheel vibration at highway speeds was actually more pronounced at first!

Now I'm back at a point where I've checked out so many things, and I've always assumed the tires are fine, but, can I really trust the person at Firestone? I mean some of the employees there looked like kids, which doesn't mean the couldn't do a decent job, but can I assume they did?

So thats what makes me crazy. As well, thinking that play in my steering linkage may be just a symptom of another worn out part etc.

I can say though I just rotated my tires again (trying to stay on top of that) maybe a month ago, thats when I noticed the worn front left tire. Rotating the tires did nothing to improve the ride, so, unless ALL my tires are out of balance I have a feeling things are okay on that front.

Also, here's another conundrum: the worn left front tire I rotated, I'm not one to really be on top of noticing tire wear (now I know better!), so I really can't say for sure that the wear actually happened while the tire was in that position (the tires were rotated once before, I'm not sure what pattern they used!).

Complicated, complicated.

Today I do plan on getting under the van again to scope things out.

For sure I have been checking the lower ball joints by prying between the lower ball stud and the rim of the wheel, I pryed really hard on both sides and couldn't feel/see any play. But there is the 9/3'oclock play on both wheels that elicit the same light clunk that seems to come from the bevel gear or linkage.

The FSM also mentions checking the ball joints by removing them and checking for rotation, this seems like alot of work! Is it possible to have a bad ball joint that passes the lever test? Out of all the possible scenarios for what could be wrong the lower ball joint fits the bill, but if there's no play.....well......(and I keep thinking of the mechanic in Philly who told me it was bad......he had a reputation for being pretty intuitive with his repairs......)

Well I'll keep on keeping on, gonna call Toyota today too (local dealer isn't too far away, maybe half hour....gonna check up about the bevel gear recall w/ my van.....)

thanks again,

mark

Okay folks, gotta love this.

I spent another hour under the van, bugging my wife to rock the wheel looking/listening for looseness etc.

After shrugging my shoulders and figuring it was now a rack issue, I was staring at my shock absorber before I lowered my jack, and I remembered BB's old post about checking the shocks.

So, I re-checked the tire that was up there, to really inspect the wear on the outside....sure enough, it was not totally even. I wouldn't call it scalloped but still enough for me to get the wrenches out and remove the shock.

Of course removing the shocks is a breeze. I took it in the house, got my manual out to check up on the testing procedure......

And you may have guessed it: this shock is dead! It has many dead spots and won't return at all when compressed. Its the original Toyota branded KYB and it has 170k on it!

Needless to say I'm pretty happy to find an actual bad part, it might not be the end in all this as I've probably damaged/worn some other parts by driving for so long with caput shocks.

Anyway, I'm now calling around for shocks locally, I'll probably just throw on some Gabriels from AutoZone, lifetime warranty, I can't seem to find much else and I don't really want to order online and then have to wait.....

I'll update mid-week once the shocks are in, we'll see how she rides!!

thanks,

mark

Mark/Abracadabra,

Here is the steering bevel recall. Download it and print it.
Some dealerships will give you the run-around on recalls and hope you go away.
If you have the actual recall/service campaign printed and in your hands, there isn't
much room at that point for them to deny you or lie to you.

Attachment 805

As far as shocks go do your homework. I got some replacement shocks that totally suck.
My front end bounces like a mofo over ruts and speed bumps.

Wow, very cool! Can't wait to make this happen.

On the shocks front, well, I've done alot of research and it seems alot of folks have a hard time finding good non bouncy as all hell shocks for the 4WD fronts.

I can't find any specific negative info on the Gabriel Ultras, which I'm gonna try.

Also, I've found there are different opinions on what a bad shock acts like depending on the shock....

In my case I figured that because the shock was easy to compress and didn't return or did so unevenly with some pauses/dead spots, my shocks are shot, yes?

I know for sure now when I think about it, my van used to pretty darn bouncy over bumps etc. Then at some point it wasn't, I never noticed and now I'm here.

We'll see what happens tomorrow!

thanks,

mark

Well, here's an update.

I got the shocks yesterday from Autozone, Gabriel Ultras, $36 each.

Today I pulled and replaced the old shocks. The passenger side shock was worse than the driver side, which as pretty bad. I compressed the old shock, which stayed compressed, and installed the new shock and went I looked at the old one it was still compressed!

Anyway I wasn't expecting a cure all here, but the ride is better. Not a whole lot.

And of course, as I expected, the steering wheel vibration at speeds over 50 is still there. Its a little subtler now, but it hasn't been cured.

So I'm not sure if the worn shocks cause wear in other components or of this is a separate issue, but I've still got play somewhere. The other day the best I could figure is that it was coming from the the rack. A clunk when you move the wheels at 9 and 3.

Boy I hate to think about replacing the rack!!!!

thanks,

mark

Here's a link to a short video I made about the sound/play I hear when moving the wheels at 9 and 3.

http://youtu.be/29G1gkaG7sI

In the video I mention that the other wheel doesn't make this noise, which is incorrect. It makes the same noise, and when my wife moves the wheel and I'm underneath I can't see any play but using my hands the I've been able to pinpoint it to my rack. I've had the driver side boot off the rack and couldn't see play on the inner.

The vibrations I feel in steering linkage are due to the fact that everything is connected to the rack.

Any thoughts?

thanks,

mark

Hey Mark - For the record -
Play @ 6/12 will really only tell you how tight your wheel bearings are.
Play @ 3/9 is steering linkage stuff.

In order to find out where the problem is you have to move through the system looking and feeling while you wiggle stuff.
So while your wife wiggles the wheel side to side to produce the noise, you need to be underneath, doing your thing.
Don't just trust your eyes.
Often times you wont see a thing, but holding each piece of the puzzle helps, so grab things to feel if there is play, squeeze them, push on them,
see if you can affect the noise, once you figure out where the clunk is coming from then you can decide how to repair it.

When I found my problem, I could feel the rack (the actual toothed rod portion inboard of the inner joints) move up and down within the body of the rack.
When pushing up hard on the left side, the clunk was gone (while the wheel was being wiggled)
That is why I attacked the preload, the preload is supposed to push up.

Just keep grabbing onto stuff until you find where the play is coming from, diagnosis is easy at that point.
You should be able to grab onto each part that is suspect - anything that has a joint or connection point is suspect.
BB

BB-

I'm gonna attack this again very soon.

About the preload:

The FSM states using a "SST" for both the lock nut and spring cap here, what did you use? I saw in your earlier post how you did the procedure as far as finding the right tension, but I'm curious about tooling. The FSM procedure is pretty technical with the preload settings and degrees of this and that, but it seems if there is play here one can just get it right I imagine.

Thanks for the heads up on this, I'll see if that's where my play is. For sure when I feel with my hands when the wheels are moved the clunk seems to come from the rack itself.

Oh, just to know, when you had the rack clunk issue did you have steering wheel vibration?

thanks again,

mark

You don't want to mess with the preload unless absolutely necessary.

That said, I believe I bought a big wrench to fit the OD of the lock nut and a "coupling nut" from the farm supply store for the spring cap.
I think the coupling nut was on the order of 3/4in but may have been 5/8th's, will have to go dig thru the tools to know for sure.
A coupling is an extra long nut, about 1.5in long and works like an allen key on the inside recess, just put a wrench on the outty bit.

As to setting it up, there is no way to do it properly with the rack installed as the weight of all the components plus the fluid in the rack,
eliminates the possibility of setting the resistance, compared to working on the bench with a short rack.
I spent a long time working between too tight and clunky, too tight will wipe out the rack in no time at all.
The other part in all this is the tower assembly which does have bearings in it and has the gear on the end that the rack is butting up against.

In my case the plunger was seized in the away position from the rack, hence the play (It is spring loaded), by cleaning and lubing everything up I was able to adjust it for minimal play but aimed for the loose side of snug.
If yours isn't seized then there are other problems that will only be made worse with this procedure.

Even if you have a similar issue and are able to correct it with the above craziness, I would put a new rack on your shopping list for the future.

You also mentioned something about tire balance.
I find the factory rims a real pain to get straight on the machine in the first place, so it's possible that they are out of balance.
It's also possible, that problem is the balancer I have access to, but the suzi rims for summer are no problem.
Then again, if you rotated tires and didn't note a change in the condition, the tires are effectively out of the equation at this point.

One lesson I have learned with Red, There is no such thing as one problem.
Only the net effect of the culmination of many ills and injustices.

Those repairs are the hardest to diagnose as there are many issues all happening simultaneously and one can easily chase symptoms instead of causes.
BB

Don't know about a vibration while I was clunking.

Okay, gotta see if the play goes away when I push up hard on the rack while the wheels are moved.

Now, is the only way to see if the plunger is seized by removing the lock nut? Can one do this without messing up the tension (if it turns out the plunger/spring are fine)? I know, 1st things 1st. Got to get under the van, will do tomorrow (wife has the van!)

thanks,

mark

Okay, so tomorrow you're going to go out and get under the van and check EVERY joint and find where your play is coming from.

IF you find the play is all at the LS (drivers) of the rack, then you need a new rack and in that case it may be worth checking the plunger as a last resort.
If you look back at post 26 where Tim links to an exploded view of the rack you will get a better understanding of what your looking at tomorrow.
The upper part of the picture is the assembled rack, the lower part is the exploded view.
The part I am talking about is at the bottom of the pic.
And yes, the only way to check it is to take it out.
Play at that area can just as well be a worn rack, internal bushings or damaged pinion bearings, either way, it is new rack time.

But the first order of business is to actually locate where the play is coming from and go from there.
BB

Oh yes I know the parts of this rack well at this point, I mean I haven't had the thing apart but I've been studying the diagram and procedures in my FSM for a few days now.

I set out today to check on the vertical play on the driver side rack arm. Up until this point I had checked by feel every other component of the steering system and suspension, the sound/feel was focused on the rack itself.

Thanks BB for the leads on the plunger, what do you know I get the van up in the air and have my wife rock the wheels at 9 and 3, making the slop/clunk sound, and I push up on the left arm, the sound goes away. I did it several times just to drive the nail home, there's something up with the rack.

As the last resort I will attempt to remove/clean out/re tension the plunger.

At this point I see there's some shielding/sheet metal etc in the way of the lock nut and spring cap.

I was able to squeeze my small calipers in and measure an OD on the luck nut of 24mm, does this seem right? Did you use an open end wrench or socket? I can't see there's much room to get an open end wrench in there, but, maybe with the metal out of the way?

The spring cap I measured with this hand "inside diameter" caliper set I have, they've saved my butt many times! Seems like the ID of the spring cap is around 7/8", does that seem right?

I saw in the FSM the parts get good old grease, which I have, so all I have to do is collect the tools and wait for the temps to rise a little.....today the high was 22 and its gonna be 9 degrees overnight....should get some 40 degree temps next week so I should be able to see how this goes....keeping my fingers crossed.....I'd rather deal w/ the rack replacement at a future date!!!

thanks again,

mark in Maine

BB, are you pretty sure you bought a 5/8" or 3/4" coupling nut for the job? I thought it seemed bigger, but when I'm searching for bigger nuts they come in packs and cost a bit of $$. My local hardware store has nuts in the smaller sizes for a few buck a piece. If you find the tool, let me know. Thanks!

mark

Mark - took a look around but couldn't find the one I used, I think it was 5/8in but may have been only 1/2in.
Just to be clear, that 5/8in references bolt or thread size not wrench size

A 5/8in nut will require about a 7/8'ths wrench.
A standard nut may very well come in package form but not what you want, the coupling nut is a special beast, 3-4x the depth of a standard nut.
A 1/2" or 5/8" coupling nut will definitely be sold separately and be on the order of $1-2 ea.
Try a construction/builders or farm supply store, they are used for joining to pieces of threaded rod together.
Local hardware stores usually wont carry that type of specialized hardware.

A 24mm sounds right for the big nut and yes I used an open end wrench, alternating with my oversize adjustable pliers but neither worked well.
I was very lucky as the jamb nut came off with the cap and I was able to separate them on the bench after the fact.
I believe I used needle nose pliers to extract the seized plunger and don't DROP the spring.
If you're working on gravel, put something down to catch any wayward pieces, a person could spend hours searching for that damn spring before finally spotting it among a zillion little pebbles....

When you get around to adjusting the tension, do it with the tire off - only because it is harder to swing the assembly and makes it easier to feel the preload. After you swing it a few times, maybe do it before taking apart just to get a feel, as there is likely fluid in the rack you will also learn how that feels as you will have to compensate for it come final adjustments.

As to the adjustment, you are tightening the plunger against the rack which is supported in the housing, the pinion interacts with the toothing on the rack.
Having too little preload will allow a gap between the teeth of the pinion and the teeth of the rack causing both noise and wear,
having too little clearance will place excessive load on the bushings and pinion and will destroy metal parts in exceptionally short order.
You are trying to achieve just enough clearance to not destroy bits and pieces, but also to not clunk, I aimed for "light click".

BB

Yeah I think I confused myself trying to measure size of the coupling nut I needed, my local mom & pop general store actually has the 1/2" and 5/8" in stock and I'll buy both just to be sure, they're cheap enough.

Hopefully I can wrestle the lock nut off without too much hassle, I've got a big adjustable wrench I'm hoping will work.

Also, it mentions in the FSM that the nut is staked, how do you unstake it, and did you restake it when done? And did you use loc-tite on the threads?

Out of nowhere we got some snow tonight.....hopefully it melts away enough this week when temps get back in to the 40s....

thanks,

mark

Funny, now that you mention it, I remember reading about that, however I think I forgot all about it when I was working on it.
Explains why the nut came off with the cap screw, on the bench they are easy enough to get apart just working them.
Perhaps re-staking it would be a good plan, though, will put it on the list, thanks for the reminder.

Staking is simple, usually done with a pin punch with a good sharp point.
You want to make a little dimple in the flat steel nut, in close to the threads, essentially you are making the threaded hole out of round and locking the nut in place, it doesn't take much, as long as you can see a nice shiny little dimple your good to go.
I would probably only do one in this case as it is a no load situation but even high load applications, I don't do more than 3, evenly spaced.
I would stay away from the loctite, at least for the time being, staking it will hold just as well and is a lot easier to disassemble if you have to go back in for any reason.
BB

I made sure the the nut was free on the cap, installed the cap (never-seize on the threads) with the jamb nut several threads backed-off and did my adjustments,
then snugged down the jamb nut with the wrench, I also remember filing the flats to make the wrench fit better.
Make sure you swing the spindle a few times while snugging up the jamb nut, just in case tightening it changes preload.

BB, I have no idea how you pulled this procedure off!

I've spent any number of trips to the local tool store (Liberty Tool, all used stuff and man they probably have 1000 wrenches in the joint!) trying to find the right wrench for the lock nut.

I can't find the "right" wrench because the lock nut is nut a typical hex head AND its freaking 45mm from flat to flat!

I tried a huge pair of adjustable pliers and another huge monkey wrench but there's just NO room in there, and the way the flats are positioned I can't get a good hold on the thing at all. I'm just wasting my time and money at this point!

Also the coupling nut has been an issue, I tried 1/2" and 5/8" which where both too small, then i tried a 3/4 and its too big.

Unfortunately for me I got pulled over this week and now have no choice but to get my van through Maine inspection. That of course means any mechanic worth their salt is going to find play in my front end and I'll be forced to replace the rack unit, paying some mechanic I have no relationship or history with and who's never worked on one of these vans. What I keep telling myself is the one local shop that was recommended has certainly seen their share of 4WD Toyota vehicles in general, and I can't imagine changing the rack out would be beyond their capabilities.........but I bet it will cost me an arm and a leg!

Oh well, there's nothing I can really do, snow is breathing down my neck here, gotta have the van for work, and if I get pulled over again without Maine registration I'll be in real trouble.

thanks for all the help, wish i could have pulled this one off!!

mark

Sorry Mark - I don't know what to tell you.
Perhaps the difference is back to what Tim was talking about, with the racks being different 87 to 88??

I know that I originally went hunting for a giant allen key but when that chore failed I happened upon the coupling nuts.
I had measured the inset hex and took my callipers with me to the store and kept hunting till I found the right animal.
I do know that the big nut was huge but I did buy a giant wrench that fit the flats but because I totally forgot about the peening, I didn't have to deal with the
nut until it went back together, but your right, it is a tight fit no matter how you slice it.
I do seem to remember converting to imperial and buying a very cheap chinese wrench ($25) it may have been a 1-3/4" or so.

As a last resort, you could even try the old hammer and chisel method, if all else fails, just be careful not to ding the housing.
Like I said though, mine came off with the inner bit and I separated them after the fact and used a file to improve the wrench fitment.
Then I only needed enough swing to snug the nut (1/8th of a turn maybe)

I can't get into my shed right now, the whole place is a disaster as we are undergoing kitchen reno's.
The house was too small before the kitchen threw up all over the rest of the house.
Am stuck here all day tomorrow with plumbers and electricians, if I can clear a path, I will try to find the pieces I used and report back.
Maybe you could resize the 3/4in coupling nut with a file or dremel or perhaps find a metric allen key that might work.
For that matter an old bolt with the appropriate sized head could work too, just locktite a couple of nuts onto the threads??
Be careful of rust built up in the recess, I did clean mine up prior to taking the measurements and was surprised at the amount of crud in there.

Speaking of resizing things, maybe you could 'adjust' a wrench with a file, to make it fit the flats??

Sorry to hear about the run-in with the law, that really sucks, so does yearly inspections.
And here I was complaining about emissions every 2 years.
Did you get your lenses sorted out yet?
There is a rusting shell in the local yard, not sure if the taillights are intact or not, last time I was by to grab a side window, I found someone had used it for baseball practice, dumb asses, but I didn't think to look at the taillights as it is pushed deep into the bush, but I could double check this week, if need be.

BB, can you clarify something for me? You mentioned a few times that the lock nut came off with the cap/adjuster part......so did you break the whole thing loose by just going at that part or did you have to break the lock nut free first?

I guess my whole problem is thinking I had to break the lock nut first, and because I can't get a good angle on it it isn't working.

But, if I can break the whole thing loose by going at the large hex adjuster then maybe I just need to file down my 3/4 coupling nut (which I started doing) and go at it. I guess I was just thinking that trying to turn the inner without loosening the locknut might make the inner tighter, but maybe not?

Anyway I did try the old hammer and chisel as well and jut ended up knocking some chunks off the lock nut, it didn't loosen and then I was thinking if I had to replace the whole rack and wanted my core $$ back I wouldn't want to return a rack with a chewed up lock nut!

Of course now we've got a snow storm, ain't no working on this vehicle in the next week. Got love the timing of things!

thanks,

mark

Yes Mark, that is correct, like you, I couldn't get any purchase on the nut and the hammer and chisel didn't work either.
In a fit of desperation I decided to try the inner nut thingy and as I cracked it loose, it all came off together as an assembly.
Then I was able to separate it, after the fact, which made reassembly a great deal easier as I was able to set the preload, then spin up the lock nut by hand and just snug the nut with the big wrench.
And you are also right on the core, you want to avoid damaging the housing if you plan on getting your core charge out of it.
BB

Oh oh oh! Now I have a little bit of hope left. These next few snowy days I'm going to file down the end of my 3/4" coupling nut and also cut it shorter (it hits up on something underneath as it stands).

Then I'll try to crack it they way you did. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

mark

Oh boy, long time since I updated this post!

Just today I had the rare combination of free time and decent weather so I could get on with this project again.

I made a discovery that I should mention for folks who may head down this road. Originally BB mentioned using what he thought was a 1/2" coupling nut as a big allen key to get the adjuster nut on the rack out. I went out and bought a 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4" coupling nut at my local hardware store. None of them worked, either too small or too big. I was confused and did some researching online where there is a much better selection of coupling nuts available. Turns out that the most common flat to flat measurement for 1/2" coupling nuts is 7/8" , which is the size you want for this nut. For some reason all the True Value mom & pop stores only sell this other kind of nut which most certainly not the right thing!

So, to clarify, if you want to do this find a 7/8" allen wrench, allen socket, or coupling nut w/ a 7/8" flat to flat measurement.

Anyway, with the right tool in hand it was no problem breaking this thing free with my big cheater bar, the lock nut of course was staked in place.

My spring and guide fell right out when I got the nut out, which tells me that they weren't likely seized, but the grease was non existent and it was sorta watery in there. I cleaned everything up and greased everything, put it back together and ended up leaving the nut staked in place. I did this because I thought this must have been the factory setting so I figured I might as well snug it up to that spot and see what it feels like, if the piston was not working then having pressure on it should make a big difference. Well in the end there is just a touch of play when I move the wheels at 9 and 3, less than before.

And the test drive....steering feels better right off the bat in general, maybe its nothing, but once I got it up to 50 the steering wheel did the same old vibration thing again.

So, I'm really feeling like my issue is either in the rack itself although today underneath I did feel some play that I've always felt in the bevel gear housing.

My plan is to hold off until we get a 2nd vehicle, then print out the recall and make an appointment for the van at the local Toyota dealer.

All in all I did learn quite a bit here. Still wondering what the problem is but I guess we'll find out at some point right?

thanks,

Mark

Hey all! I just picked up a 4wd '87 cargo and noticed the insides of the front 2 tires were showing wire while the outsides were nowhere near. I took it in to replace the tires and get an alignment, but the folks there said they couldn't align without replacing the upper ball joints. Their initial quote was about $400 for parts and labor, but then they called back to refer me to another garage as they weren't comfortable having never before done the repair. I took it to the next place where I was informed that the upper ball joints are attached to the control arm and the cheapest price they could find was $450 each (out of Canada). They then estimated $650 in labor (3 hrs/side). I declined the job and inquired how badly they were in need of replacement. I guess the joints have 1/4" of play, which they didn't figure was overly dangerous, although too great to properly align.

Three hours per side seems like a lot to me, although I have no experience with this kind of work, and I imagine the arms are available somewhere for less than $450, but my main concern is how risky it is to continue piling miles on the van in this condition. It seems to handle fairly well... Any thoughts?

The cool thing about the 4wd's is that the balljoints & the control arms are one unit - so you get new control arm bushings when you do the balljoints. Replacing the control arm bushings on the 2wd is a bit of a hassle, but replacing the balljoints is a much simpler job.

Check with Rockauto for prices on the balljoints then find a local mechanic who specializes in suspension. I've shopped around on craigslist for mechanics with some success. Just interview them beforehand & don't get bullied around by them. Usually that kind of behavior means they don't know what they are doing.

I've had tires separate from improper alignment. not only it is the practical thing to do it's the safe thing to do - you don't want a tiring to go out on you at highway speeds.

They are correct. On the 4wd vans the upper ball joints are part of the upper A-Arm assembly. I believe the upper A-Arms are still available from Toyota, but the price is getting pretty ridiculous. I just checked current MSRP and see they are $458.60 each :shock:. On-line discount sites like www.1stToyotaParts.com will sell for $330.85 each (plus shipping). Considering there are still good used ones out there I would have a hard time justifying that. I pulled a good set of uppers out of the u-pull-it yard in Portland last year and they were pristine. Yes these vans are getting rare, but Colorado isn't a bad place to find parts as they are still showing up in the salvage yards there. I see there's currently an 87 in Denver's U-Pull-And-Pay but it doesn't say if it's a 4wd or 2wd. Another possible option would be to remove the arms, then have a machine shop rework them to accept removable ball joints. I had a set modified like this so I could run upper joints from a 4 runner. If you go this route you can have the joints spaced away from the control arm thus lifting the van a few inches. This type of machine work isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than purchasing new uppers from Toyota. Here's a thread where we have discussed this: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...int-conversion

As for running your worn joints it's hard to say when safety becomes an issue. Tires aren't cheap either, so there's that too. At some point it will need to be dealt with, so I'd lean toward sooner rather than later. Good luck. Tim

PS: Current Toyota part numbers for the upper A-Arms = 48066-28050 R/H & 48067-28050 L/H