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I had this once on a chevy. Out of round rotors and loose callipers. Every half turn the pads touched, the callipers moved (whump) but........
Could pad movement do this in case the calipers are good? Ie: touch, move, let go, touch, move, let go. If your pads are shimmying around perhaps? Seems far fetched, though.
But DO conduct the test outlined by Tim.
I had a dragging brake on the Van a few months ago and it was just hot and killed mileage. No 'whumping'.
Answers to the post below
-I don't remember the pads that I took off, the worn ones, I don't think they were obviously more/less worn on either side (but they were both low enough that the wear indicator was making noise)
-I didn't service the calipers, I did compress the pistons but they weren't easy to move (used a C clamp), I didn't open the bleeder just took the lid off the res.
-I haven't remedied the missing brake hardware(mostly because I didn't think it was an issue, maybe I'm wrong?)
-the rotors are worn but don't seem warped, some very minor pitting, I don't see pad imprints, I didn't have them turned
-I can sorta feel the sound but I can't say whether its through the steering or anything specific.
-it doesn't pull at all when the brakes are applied, thats why I ruled out warped rotors
-it tracks pretty straight when not braking, it wanders a tad but nothing I've ever worried about
-The noise doesn't change at all when braking, except for the fact that it changes with the wheel rotation, so, when the brakes are applied the wheels slow down so does the sound
Tomorrow I'm going to check the lowest common denominator: the rim/tire
I've mentioned before that I got a new set of tires put on last year and I thought I heard the sound before that, BUT after talking w/ my wife, who drives the van as much as me, we can't TOTALLy be sure that we heard the sound before/after getting new tires. So I figured I can't REALLY say for sure its not that, so tomorrow I'll throw the spare on and see what happens.
mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
Well I ruled out the simplest possibility today, for sure. Put the spare on, same sound.
Its funny, as silly as I would have felt if it turned out the problem was the wheel/tire I've been secretly hoping that it was the solution....what an easy fix it would have been.
Oh well, back the to drawing board!
In a few days I'll be finishing the wheel bearings/Aisin hub install on the other side and then I'll hopefully have some time to do some more testing.
I've begun thinking about taking the van in somewhere just to have the sound diagnosed. We're on the verge of moving to Maine, its not a long or hard ride but I need to be sure things are sound before we load up and go. I hate paying someone a bunch of $$ for this but I'm also coming up stumped and just don't have the time/knowledge to spend on checking things out.
mark
Too bad, that would have been nice.
At least you have ruled out the wheel, 1 less thing to worry about.
Diagnosis needs to be done in a logical manner, where you rule out things as you go, as well as correcting the things you find along the way.
On the brakes, having missing hardware could impact performance and safety, so it needs to be corrected.
Will it fix the noise, probably not, but it will eliminate 1 more thing and increase your confidence in the rig.
Unless you have a mechanic that you know and trust, you should find the time to do this yourself.
The fact that the noise does NOT change when braking, I would think that the brakes are not the source of your problem.
But until you correct the LS hub and bearings, there is little point in going further, maybe the LS is locked up too?
For the record, if the fr hubs are unlocked and the TC is in 2WD, you should be able to spin the fr propshaft and fr axles by hand, without the wheels turning.
As to the bearings, if the were shiny and smooth (no radial ridges/grooves on the rollers or the races) then they should be okay.
If they had a blackish hue to them, (races and/or rollers/cages) then they are burnt and require replacing.
Also of note, the RS has new bearings,the LS does not, your spinning resistance test is not based on sound principles.
The side with freshly packed and adjusted bearings will have more resistance than the side that has not been serviced.
BB
PS warped rotors will not make the brakes pull, but the will induce a vibration felt in the steering wheel. Movement in the brake pedal would indicate rear drums out of round.
Pulling or fading to one side, is usually associated with pads/shoes not moving freely and evenly.
:whs: Great info from BB. I can tell he's been around the block (more than once) and knows what he's talking about. Thanks BB for your informative posts :thmbup:. Mark, good luck with the diagnostic work. I'm hoping you have the time to finish yourself. If you do, hang in there (you'll be a better man for it) :). Tim
Well, I took the van in to have someone look at it, just to diagnose. They're not Toyota pros but they have a super solid and loyal following here in W. Philly, they're within walking distance, and they're very friendly and straightforward.
With that said, they just called and can't find anything wrong except a bad lower ball joint on the left side (not where the sound is)
They also said there is play on the driver side wheel (the side I haven't worked on/repacked yet) which will be fixed when I do those bearings.
They said are you sure its not the wheel bearing?
What issue would a wheel bearing have to have in order to make the sound I'm hearing. Like I said I didn't notice anything with the wheel bearings after they were cleaned, but, can one be bad without seeing that its bad? Should I just replace the bearings/races to be sure?
I'm sorta running out of time, gotta take care of so many things before I leave. I can certainly make time to finish the bearings/hub swap but man this is kinda driving me nuts!
mark
PS As far as bearings/races go, I'm kinda confused when I look at a place like Rock Auto. Do they come with races or are those separate? What do I use to drive in the race?
I havn't done my vans wheel bearings but have done them on several other vehicles including a 4WD truck, a good shop manual with a picture is worth a lot, the wheels come off and the outer bearing comes off in your hand as you pull the wheel off the spindle, watsh the order of the washers and any spacers and once off pry the seal out of the hub and access the inner bearing, if your careful you can reuse the seal but why would you there cheap. anyway, clean the whole thing up all the grease and such maybe in a can or shallow pan with some kerosene and a good stiff bristle brush, blow out with compressed air if you can. when clean a good visual inspection, look for heat discoloration and pitting, and if you find any thing other then a easy spinning nice looking bearing replace. as for the races, you can buy a brass drift from an auto parts store and use a decent size hammer with the drift to tap out the races. you can see a slight lip where you can catch a little bit, work your way around and tap, tap. if you need to replace them buy them as a set and tap the new ones in, when you repack the bearings with fresh grease use a rubber glove to avoid some mess and get grease in every little place u can:yes:. it's easy, the only extra tools are the drift and the air compressor.
Mark, I'm a little confused. Are you saying you cleaned and repacked the bearings or not??? Did you do just one side? If just one side did you do it on the side with noise or the other side?
Assuming you already cleaned, inspected, and repacked the noisy side, then I would have to say it's not the bearings. In order for a freshly packed bearing to make a noise that loud, it would have to be in really bad shape. I couldn't imagine you not noticing if the bearing was that bad. There would likely be very obvious damage (like chunks missing and parts falling out during removal). Not to mention it would feel rough like gravel when rotating by hand. Did the hub feel smooth and quiet when rotating? If so then it's not the bearings.
It seems odd to me that a professional shop can't hear or locate the problem. Just how loud is it? Do you hear it while driving with the windows up? If it's that loud then it should be easy to isolate. At this point I think you should finish the repack and hub conversion. And then (if it's still an issue) complete the troubleshooting as outlined earlier in this thread. If the bearings look good then I wouldn't replace them. If you do find a bad bearing or just want to replace for the heck of it, a bearing and seal driver kit (like I linked to earlier in this thread) is the cat's meow. There are other ways to do it, but you need specific diameter disks to apply even pressure while you drive them in. It can also be done with a hammer and a punch, but you need to be patient and slowly work the punch around from one side to the next. The races are hardened and pretty tough, but if you get impatient or hit the punch too hard you can still cause damage. Tim
Okay to clarify, sorry to be confusing:
The passenger side wheel has been cleaned/repacked/etc. They bearings did look fine, the wheel spins smooth with no noises. I only mentioned replacing the bearings because I can't seem to find another cause!
The driver side wheel will be finished next Monday. Then I'll do some test driving like mentioned before, and if I have the time I'll bring the back end off the ground and do the other test.
The noise is audible when the windows are up. It SEEMS like the sound is coming from the passenger side wheel, especially since it sounds like a "rotational" issue and its certainly not coming from the driver side wheel (which would be obvious since I'm sitting right over it!)
The shop did say they didn't think the sound was serious, which I agreed with, but, that doesn't mean I want to just ignore it!
Mark
Folks-
Big news here, the sound that I started this topic about is gone, hopefully for good.
Today I finally had the time to finish the Aisin hub conversion on the drivers side. Things went smoothly enough, I had to drill out all 3 torx bolts that hold the auto hub brake assembly in, but, since the thing went right in the garbage can I didn't mind a little destruction!!
The 1st thing I noticed once everything was off was that this side of the axel was missing the C-clip and spacer/bushing thing that goes on the end of the axel. The axel bolt was present. I thought, aha! This might be the source of my sound!
So I cleaned up the hub and bearings (which all looked good), got everything back together freshly packed and adjusted per the FSM, and then went for a test drive.
I was fully expecting the sound to still be there since I thought the sound probably was from the missing parts.
Guess what? The sound is gone, totally and completely gone, and the van drives totally smooth and silent.
Pretty awesome huh? Must have been something w/ the auto hub or bad adjustment on the bearings or?? Who knows?
Anyway all is not totally clear as I did hear another sound....I'm not sure if this is a new sound or something we just didn't hear because the old sound covered it up. It was not consistent, and can only be described as sorta sounding like I was dragging something under the van, it wasn't real loud and I couldn't tell if it was rotational or not. I even pulled over at one point because I thought I was dragging something, but I wasn't. Whats more, this sound only happened a few times and only at lower speeds. Highway speeds were smooth, great.
I wonder....what sounds are associated with the missing axel clip/spacer?
Which leads me to the next question, what are the Toyota part numbers for these? Is there just two parts, a spacer and clip?
I attached a pic, to help.
thanks everyone!!
MarkAttachment 584
Emphasis on the 1st part of his statement :LOL2:. Okay, the spring clip (snap ring) is Toyota part #90520‑27023. There are actually 3 spacer sizes available. They are as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
90560‑27005 T=2.0, T=2.0
90560‑27010 T=1.8, T=1.8
90560‑27011 T=2.25, T=2.25
These are cheap (probably a couple bucks each), so personally I'd get one of each then go with the one that fits the best. You can get all scientific with a fish scale or dynamometer, but I usually just pull the vice grips with one hand and insert the feeler gauge in with the other. Glad you're making progress, it sounds like you're just about there. Tim
I just ordered the parts.
Do I need a special pliers to install the clip?
And I'm wondering, I can get at this by not tearing everything down, right? Does the wheel need to be up or can I just get the 4WD hub off and do the procedure? Its just trickier to find a good spot to do work in the city, which is what I'll need to do in this case.
thanks!
mark
There are probably other ways to get it on, but I'd highly recommend a special pair of pliers for this. Here's a picture of a nice/expensive pair, but I think you could probably find a cheap pair someplace that would get the job done.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...s/IMG_1518.jpg
You can do this without jacking and removing the wheel. Just pull the locking hub and get-er-dun :thmbup:. Tim
Would the pliers be called "snap ring" pliers?
mark
Mark - Glad you found the source of your aggravation.
As to what to do now, I realize you are looking for the quick fix but having already been down this road I would highly recommend replacing the
internal bushings and bearings as outlined in the other thread.
Mine was missing this part on the right side, I corrected mine as you are planning to do and all was good until I out it into 4WD and that was how I found out the rest of the parts needed attention.
The danger here is that with the bushing worn, the axles will be the next thing to get trashed, at $800/side I would be looking to salvage them.
I got really lucky, while there was a little scoring I was able to clean it up with #600 wet paper
At this point we know that you have been driving around with the fr hubs in locked position due to your defective hubs so excessive wear is already an issue. The fact that you had a noise, would make me think your bushes are already toasted.
As to your question, yes, pulling the hub is all that is required if you plan on installing a spacer and clip, no special tools are required.
As to getting the spring clip on, spread it just enough to get it onto the end of the axle, then slide it down into place.
I would do it on the ground or on ramps as you don't want the wheels to be hanging as it will change the angle/load on the axles and you may not get an accurate read on the required shim thickness. As to guessing, place the clip in the groove (not installed) while simultaneously pulling the axle while measuring with the feeler gauge and a shim, helps to have a helper as you will need at least 3 hands, you should be able to get close and only have to install the clip once.
If you do pull the axles, you HAVE to have the weight on the front wheels or you cannot get the axles out, I learned that one the hard way.
Check out the other thread for part numbers and tools.
As to finding your new noise, go back to the procedure outlined for finding noises earlier in this thread, it will allow you to pin point where the noise is coming from. Being cab forward design, just about everything is behind you and noises have an odd way of travelling, but you already know about that, because your previous noise was form the RS, but disappeared when the left side was actioned.
If your current noise is occurring without the huns locked then you should be able to diagnose it prior to actioning the axle as the loose axle is not in play when in 2wd. The fact it 'disappears' at faster speeds doesn't mean it is gone, just the frequency is high enough
Your new noise could be coming form anywhere but going through the steps in a logical order should allow you to zero in on it quickly.
BB
Tim is right AGAIN. Those are the pliers to use.
If you are buying a pair of pliers do NOT get the ones with changeable tips, they only seem like a good idea until you try to use them.
Then you get to drive back into town and buy the correct ones, wasting more time and money.
Yes, but there are many different types of snap ring pliers and you will be looking for a specific type. You want the "flat nose expanding type". I'm not sure if that's the correct name, but that's what I call them. The ones shown above are nice because they give you the mechanical advantage. This means better control & reduced risk of damage due to over expanding of the clip. A pair of piston ring pliers might work too. TimQuote:
Originally Posted by abracadabra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
LOL, I can never get enough of this :rol: :lol: :LOL2:
Shoot, I was hoping the $2 Harbor Freight pliers with the changeable tips would to the trick! Anyone have a brand to buy thats not a million dollars? I don't plan on doing this again, hopefully.
mark
Oh about the axel bushing issue with these vans: I've read up on this, I'm not afraid of the work but its over $100 in parts, and, isn't the noise associated with these going bad only audible in 4WD? The new noise that I hear, which is low and intermittent, is in 2WD only.
mark