Charging Air Conditioning System

Its summer time again and wanted to top off my AC with R12.
Blows nice and cold when driving, not so much while setting still.

the first post has link to R12 for sale on ebay,
the last few posts in this thread talk about Redtek so searched it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-TEK-12a...frcectupt=true

I'm uncertain of how everyone says the R12 and R134 are not interchangeable and then we have bottles that say they are good replacements for both. :wall:
Even with the designation R12a R134a, doesnt make sense to me.


I could make a quick road trip.
https://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/...875745735.html

How is everyones Ac running the start of this summer?

If it blows cold when driving, that's about all you can expect. On these older systems, while sitting still you're not getting good air flow through the condenser, nor are you running the compressor at sufficient rpm, so it's not going to dump nearly as much heat (we all deal with that). If you put it in neutral and rev the engine above 2k RPM, then it should start working better, but it's really designed for doing it's job @ cruising speed with turbulent air (from moving) passing through the condenser. Personally, if it's cooling, I wouldn't "top off" unless I saw bubbles in the sight glass or I could see a pressure issue from a gauge set. Regarding other types of refrigerant, I've only used R-12, so I have no experience with the other stuff........perhaps one of the other guys will chime in.

So far (knock on wood), my AC has been working flawlessly since I reworked it in Aug of 2017 (as documented earlier in this thread). Good luck with yours :thmbup:. Tim

Took me this long to check my system, while sitting still, @2k RPM’s blows cool, no bubbles in sight glass, RPM’s @ 3K started to see bubbles in sight glass, which agrees with above statement. Gotta be at cruising speed to enjoy A/C the system will need to be circulating rapidly. Also means I’m not sufficiently low on R12.
Thanks Tim,
as that silly post that shows a generator and window unit on a car, I have now decided to try the air cooler, which looks to be a ice chest with a fan one it. Blows cool ice chest air. I have a over priced Yeti I can convert. These Sucklahoma summers can be very hot and muggy. And I travel with all 8 seats full and would like them to be comfortable.

https://youtu.be/ITtlxjvLQis

I’ll set it in the way way back, strap her down and run it off battery power, or the back seat cigarette lighter.

If if anyone is already doing this post up.

IMHO an ice based or 12V based cooler with a fan is a joke. There is no way you'll get the kind of BTU's needed to cool the interior of a van. Yes, I saw the guys thermometer with ~40° output temp, but he doesn't show ambient (inlet) air temp. I'm guessing he pulled that thermometer out of a fridge shortly before taking that video.

Just curious if anybody has gone this route???

I'd like to revamp my system and for this price it can't NOT be worth a try...

https://www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-R...WXS93V2VR5H32G

Looks to be along the same lines as the Redtek

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flecker

Just curious if anybody has gone this route???

I'd like to revamp my system and for this price it can't NOT be worth a try...

https://www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-R...WXS93V2VR5H32G

---

Interesting, its got 9 reviews and they are all good.
Go for it and post up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andywear

Interesting, its got 9 reviews and they are all good.
Go for it and post up.

---

Already ordered... I'll guinea pig this one.

So I got the kit today... comes with 3 cans of r134a replacement with dye (says it can be used in R12 OR R134a system). Also comes with a can of proseal, in case of a leak I am assuming. And 2 cans of oil charge that says it's compatible with mineral, ester and pag oils. Lastly it comes with a fill hos/ gauge that fits on R12 systems low pressure port side... should be everything I need.

I won't be using the oil charge or proseal initially... I will just start with a can of the R134a "replacement" on the low pressure charge port and see where my pressure is. Kinda nice to have a dye present to make any leaks in the system obvious.

I did order a new fan clutch also because I have noticed my temp gauge starting to creep a wee bit above the halfway mark lately. When I went through the cooling system it's the one component that didn't get replaced, and after testing it the other day it's obviously tired and no longer functioning properly. So that will be a mandatory repair prior to fiddling with the A/C system. Don't want to press my luck and risk an overheat whilst getting the A/C dialed in. Will be a few more days before I can get to it, but will report back when I do!

My Van is a 4x4 so I had some fun locating the low pressure port and sight glass... lol. This is where I miss the pickup truck ease of A/C maintenance. lol, I never had to crawl under a rig to charge the A/C before.

Will post back with my results!

OK, Update time.

Replaced the fan clutch (That was fun). I'm not a tiny guy at 6'1 and fat fingers, so it was like the monkey and the football of course. :lol: Anyways, that SIGNIFICANTLY improved my cooling!
Added 2 cans of the envirotek and Wha-La! Running at a cool 53 degrees! just idling at 2k rpm's and the temp sat right in the center while sitting. Couldn't be happier, especially with the temp at 87* the whole time.

This was a :dance2::dance2: (two dancing banana) job with the A/C charge and the fan clutch...


One Question though, in looking at the chart based on temp/ pressure... I started at around 18 psi @ 85*. Finished the second can right around 30 psi @87... Seem right? The chart called for like 38 psi but I don't feel comfortable adding that much stress to the R12 system, so I'm guessing it was a happy compromise. Seem legit?

Edit: Took the Van for about a 45 minute drive around town and through the woods just to see how it's cooling (from both the A/C and the coolant temp) and it did REALLY well! The A/C gets the cab nice and cozy with the outside temps at roughly 90 today... bit of a heatwave blowing through my part of AZ this week. The temp gauge (however reliable that 32 year old mechanism is) was at the halfway mark with the A/C running full blast and mixed driving. Not to shabby! SO, in conclusion, I am guessing the envirosafe stuff is as adequate as the redtek and at a bit cheaper cost! Will be good to have A/C for this weekends camping adventure!

Greetings fellow Van Wagon people.

Hope all are well and keeping safe through this incredible time in our lives.

Moving to the next stage of restoration and that is the AC.
This has been an on going WIP (Work In Progress) for over a year now. The monkeys that worked on the van just continually screw it up and I end up fixing it myself. So now I am going for the AC.

They installed a new compressor, dryer and evaporator. The temp never got below 75 coming out of the vents. Then in a week she lost pressure and compressor turned off. Upon examination a yellow type of fluid was dripping off the compressor, like a lot of it. So needless to say the AC is down. This is the third compressor they put in and it is to going back there any more. I am not sure of the anatomy of the compressor as to where the yellow fuid could come out of. My guess it is AC oil. So my thought is to clean the compressors outside case as much as possible and charge the system with 134 and dye. It will only last a week at best but it should show me where the leak is in more detail.
Should I add more oil or should I just charge it with the can and do the leak tests.

I will no doubt use the eviro-safe product after I find the leak. Then fine tune the system after she is stable.

So question are:
Should I add more oil?
Should I just replace the new compressor?
Is there any area around the compressor to look closer at when the stuff starts leaking out again?

Thanks to all and please stay safe.

MT

Hi MT, all my vans are still R-12, so I won't be much help regarding anything else. I too went through a compressor in a short period of time until I got a Denso rebuild (actually rebuilt by Denso). Prior to that I had gotten a rebuilt Denso, but it was rebuilt by another company and only lasted 3 years. So far my genuine Denso compessor has lasted almost 3 years and is still blowing nice and cold (knock on wood).

If you can already identify the compressor is leaking, I would recommend just replacing it with the Denso (rebuilt by Denso). I have a write-up on the basic job starting with post #71 in this thread. Since yours is already converted to the modern Freon, I would get a gauge set for the type of Freon you select along with a chart that shows desired pressures. I would also highly recommend a deep vacuum to the system to suck out all the old garbage before recharging. Good luck! Tim

Rocket Fuel Tim!!!

I will find my leak and get the Denso. Now that it has been 3 years, any thoughts on the kind of oil is in there, 6 or 8? Or should I just use this universal Ester Oil I have seen used?

This should be an experience.:cnfsd: But so far each challenge has been rectified with TVT!

MT

Good question on type of oil that's in there. I could find no information as to the type. Since R-12 is obsolete, I would have to assume it's whatever they recommend for R-134 (probably 8). Still, I would recommend draining and replacing with whatever is recommended for the type Freon you choose. To drain just remove the shipping plate and turn it upside down in a drain pan for an hr or so. I would change positions and rotate the pulley at 15 min intervals. I wouldn't recommend flushing with anything, just get as much out as you can, add the new stuff to the compressor (like I did in post #71), pull a deep vacuum for 1/2 hr or so, then add the rest of the oil & the Freon through the charge port.

FWIW, I got my scale at Harbor Freight and it was inexpensive. It is impressively accurate to boot! You can also purchase the big bottles of Freon easily as long as it's not R-12. I recently purchased a 15 lb bottle of R-134 + a gauge set off of eBay at a reasonable price in case my wife's car or my motorhome ever need a recharge. If you don't have a scale or a big bottle of Freon, you can simply add by the can, just use the weight/volume info on the can to calculate. BTW, a lot of Freon sold by the can includes oil and/or die (by ratio), so be sure you know what you're putting in before adding extra oil or die. Since the manual calls out R-12, I'd recommend using a conversion chart to compare weights and pressures, then calculate using the FSM as your guide. Good luck! Tim

Roger That Tim:

I think I will take this one slow. I will first give it a small charge of 134 and dye after I clean up the compressor so I can have a better look with the UV light as it leaks. The liquid that came out of it was a yellowish substance. You think that may be the oil in the compressor?

Since there is nothing in the system currently, a full suck down is required after I replace the compressor if that is what is leaking. So that means that it will need, according to the service manual, about 3 lbs of 134 but the oil is funny. It shows so much if you replace the compressor, then so much if you replace the condenser, then so much if you replace the dryer. If I suck it down will there not be anything in it? In that case for my 2wd twin system air and no refrigerator how to I find out how much oil in total to put in? Don't want to screw that up for sure.

MT

Yeah, oil is always a calculated guess. Just because you pull a deep vacuum doesn't mean all the oil will be removed, it depends on where the oil is. As the system is being evacuated most of the oil in the lines and condenser will be removed, it is however unlikely oil in the compressor will be sucked out. Once full vacuum is reached whatever oil remains will stay where it's at.......unless there's a leak. If there's a leak there will be a constant flow between the leak source and the vacuum pump. Any oil between the leak and the vacuum pump will likely be evacuated. Tim

OK, will give it a shot. Thanks.

Will keep you posted

MT

OK, started my adventure with getting the AC working.

I cleaned off the new compressor that was installed so if it did leak I would get a current picture of UV dye.
I charged it from the low pressure side under the front of the van just under the evaporator. This is where they changed the fitting to a 134 fitting. I put the can on and gave it a hit and was able to increase the pressure from almost nothing to 17lb. No compressor at that time. So I ran up on top to see if all was ok and increase idle a tad and the compressor turned on.:rol:
It stays on until I shut it the AC off and will not come back until I increase idle again. So that is that. I have the potentiometer on the AC amplifier set for the lowest compressor turn on idle so it is not that. So I thought maybe it just needs more pressure. I stopped there to ask before I did something wrong.

But here is an interesting point.
In the manual they show two points, and high pressure valve and a low pressure valve.
Again, the low pressure is near the evaporator and the high pressure is just off the back side of the condenser with the electric fan on it. Well that high pressure one had no 134 adaptor!. Further investigation I took a look at the rear evaporator and I find another fitting in their with a 134 adaptor on it.
The manual shows just two fittings not three. And why is there no 134 fitting on the high side? Do you think these clowns never used a two gauge charge system and just shot 134 into the low pressure? And what the hell is the one on the rear evaporator for?

One more thing. When the AC came on I was expecting that the idle would have gone up from the idle up diaphragm, the one with the plastic adjuster on it. Come to find out that the adjuster is working with or without the VSV on or off. I check the VSV and it seems to be OK. Isn't the idle up diaphragm only suppose to work with the AC is on? What controls this, suction from the diaphragm hose?
I added pics of the charge ports.

I just thought I'd chime in on using Hydrocarbon/Propane based refrigerants such as Enviro-Safe and RedTek. I've used them in half a dozen or so vehicles I've had over the last 20 years for an R12 replacement. It works very well, but you need to make sure you don't overcharge your system with it. It only requires about 1/3 the weight of R12 and unlike R12 you don't wan't to charge your system until the sight glass is clear. If it's clear then you are overcharged. There is info here: https://www.es-refrigerants.com/prod...t/refrigerant/

Stuart

:whs:

Works so much better than messing around with r134a conversations.

Yes, I have every intention to change over to Eviro-Safe. Have to get this thing working first.

Thanks for the encouragement !

Been doing more digging and still there is no sign of anyone knowing why I have 3 AC ports. The low in the front near the evaporator is one, the I assume high side is on the condenser with the electric fan and only god knows what they used the one on the rear evaporator for.

Any ideas please chime in.

Thanks!

MT

Yeah, it's not uncommon for there to be multiples. Sometimes you'll also find them on the compressor and on the dryer. I guess they could be helpful for doing a super thorough evacuation, but personally I just ignore them. Just use the ones under the front of the van. The one on the big line is low side and the one on the small line is the high side. Even though your dryer is new-ish I would recommend replacing that too......especially if you replace your compressor and/or change types of Freon. Tim

Thanks Tim:

OK, I will not bother with the one on the rear evaporator. The high pressure down under next to the electric fan has no 134 fitting but the one coming out of the front evaporator does. Do you think these clowns just use the low side charge? The van by the way went to 3 different AC repair firms here in Daytona.

I still have not figure out the idle up diaphragm issue. The control works fine but works all the time even when the AC is off. I checked the VSV and it seems to be OK. How does the diaphragm work? Does it use suction to turn it off an on from the VSV?
This had worked perfect before, go figure.

Thanks again

MT

More to the previous thread:

The diaphragms plastic control controls the idle but it does it both with the AC on or Off. This of course screws up my normal idle.

MT

Read the upper left hand corner of the diagram below.

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/...achmentid=1268

For whatever reason, on my 86 van, the idle-up did not activate when my AC compressor came on. Rather than spend time troubleshooting, I just ran a jumper wire between my compressor clutch wire and the idle-up VSV wire. Now whenever my compressor kicks in, so does that VSV, which in turn activates the idle-up diaphragm, and my idle speed increases to compensate for the compressor load. The idle-up diaphragm is adjusted while the AC compressor is on and I set mine to be a little higher than normal idle speed so it satisfies my AC amplifier's lowest setting. This way my compressor will stay running when I come to a stop light. Tim

Tim:

Yes I can see where that would be an alternative trigger to turn on that VSV. Fortunately my system turns on the VSV normally. My problem is the what the diaphragm is doing. I did the same thing you did about a year ago. I set the diaphragm control so the rpm was a tad high when the AC came on. But now the diaphragm is active all the time. Whether I on the diaphragm VSV on or off the diaphragm Control still functions. So I cannot separate its idle adjustment from the normal idle of the engine.

I need to figure out how this diaphragm turns on an off. I checked the VSV by way of the test they show in the manual but I don't see anything there for the diaphragm. Do you have any history on the diagram?

MT

If the VSV is working (engaging/disengaging and allowing/disallowing flow) but the idle speed does not increase/decrease, then it sounds like the idle-up diaphragm is messed up. Tim

Well, I will have to put this one aside for a bit. I ran into some differential issues. Got a whirling noise coming from the entrance of the yoke into the meatball.
So will have to come back to this.

I will jump up in a thread that has history on this and go from there. Thanks again.

MT

OK, while waiting for rear end parts I am jumping back on the air.

I pumped upped the system with UV dye and Freon and found a major leak on the seam between the compressor and the plate that connectors to both high and low pressure hose. The my 89 FSM shows a gasket and my 87 shows o rings.t Rock autos looks like it offers both but the 89 has an extra chamber or something due to the gasket picture the Rock autos is just square. Of course this compressor has been replaced three times with the same make. So the big question is which o ring set to get.
Attached are pics of the differences.
The amount of dye was so much it literally drips off the bottom of the compressor assembly. Then of course there are drips on the corners of the plate.

I would have thought that these jerks who put this in would have seen something so obvious. Anyone have any experience with this type of leak and the kind of seal that is used.
I did not split the plate yet in case I had to leave it exposed to atmosphere while I waited for the seals. If I have to literally go in and see what I have should I just throw something in the high and low pressure holes till the part arrives?

Better yet if somebody has seen this kind of leak before.


Thanks to all

MT

It almost has to be o-rings. When I did mine I ordered 2 different sets because they were cheap and I didn't want to come up short. If I thought there was a possibility of a gasket I would have ordered that too. After the job was done I had lots left over, but that was fine. Tim

Thanks Tim:

Any idea why this continues to leak? Since the compressor has been changed 3 times my suspect may be the plate itself. Is there anything I should look closer at when putting new O rings in?

Check to make sure the bolts are tight, then check the mating surfaces for damage (scratches, cracks, bumps, foreign material, etc). I'd also use a straight edge to verify these surfaces are not warped. Look closely at the old o-rings to see if they got misaligned and/or pinched. If that happened part of the o-ring would be smashed or there would be an irregular flat spot. Check them carefully for nicks or cuts too.

When you put it back together, use some compressor oil on the new o-rings as this will help hold them in place and also help them squeeze out correctly when pressure is applied. And as always, other than oil, make sure these surfaces are spotlessly clean when going back together. Tim

Roger that!

MT

OH! One more thing. Do you have a preferred O ring make or firm to get them?

At least before I order the Rock Auto ones.
Thanks again

MT

If you get a new or rebuilt Denso compressor, I believe it will come with new o-rings, and I'd probably trust the Denso ones over anything aftermarket. If I recall correctly, I got 2 different sets (different brands) off of Rockauto.com too. It's been too long to remember which brands I got and/or if I got a stronger feeling of quality for one over the other. I'm guessing parts like these don't matter much, but I like Denso or OE Toyota parts if/when available. Tim

Thanks for the input Tim.

Will keep you posted.

MT

Well, I have stupid question:

When I look at my can of 134 freon it says to shake and turn upside down when filling turning can from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock . Well according to the FSM it says to charge the low side with the refrigerant in a vapor state not a liquid state meaning to not invert the can.

Was R12 different back in the day and 134 is different, hmmm don't think so.

Any comments?

MT

Sorry people. I just got another can of this stuff at Avanced Auto and it says what my FSM says. So all OK.

MT

If the system has a vacuum, with the can upside down it will suck the full charge of Freon/oil without even starting or engaging the compressor. After it sucks the Freon, although probably not necessary, I like to let it sit for ~ ½ hr (before starting) to allow vapor/liquid to migrate into the appropriate locations. Tim