Replaced radiator and now gets hot when idling too long or low speeds, have not done thermostat. Fan clutch comes on but not till things seem to be too hot? Any ideas as to next move? Randy
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Replaced radiator and now gets hot when idling too long or low speeds, have not done thermostat. Fan clutch comes on but not till things seem to be too hot? Any ideas as to next move? Randy
Hello and welcome to TVT! IMO replacing the thermostat should be your next move. They can and do get stuck (I've seen it many times). If it's stuck in a closed or partially closed position, it could certainly explain your problem. OEM thermostats are a bit unique on these vans. There are aftermarket ones listed, but some of them don't fit quite right and/or the travel of the valve is incorrect. For this reason I highly recommend a genuine Toyota thermostat. It's Toyota Part #90916-03046. You will also need the rubber seal that holds it in place. The seal is Toyota part #16325-63011.
I suspect your problem may actually be the fan clutch, but the T-stat is cheap and pretty easy to do (just consider it routine maintenance). Llamavan has a good write-up HERE that explains how to replace it. The fact that your fan clutch engages is encouraging, but it needs to engage BEFORE the van overheats. Typically a good working fan clutch will engage when the temp needle hits the center or just slightly higher (about 200°F), and should stay engaged until temp comes down to 190° - 195°F (needle somewhere under half way). If yours isn't coming on until there's an overheat condition (needle around 3/4 or about 220° - 230° F), then it's got a problem.
If this is the case you have 2 choices. You can go get a new clutch (again I strongly recommend genuine Aisin/Toyota), or you could try to adjust the one you have. If you attempt to adjust, keep in mind this is not much more than a "hail Mary" and could quite possibly be a waste of time or even make the problem worse. Still, if you are financially challenged (like most of us these days) it could be worth a shot. If you attempt this, the 1st thing you need to do is remove the fan unit and separate the clutch from the fan. When you get to this point, the next step is opening the case. Keep in mind that this is a sealed unit and has a specific amount of silicone goo inside, so keep it laying flat and try not to damage the rubber seal or introduce dirt/foreign material into the clutch. Once open you will have access to the adjustment screws inside. See picture below:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...OpenedUp-1.jpg
To make the clutch engage at a lower temp, you will need to loosen these screws and turn the plate counter clockwise. How far to turn is somewhat of a guessing game, but I would think a movement of about 1/8" or so would be a good place to start. Good luck and please report back with results and pictures if you have that ability. Tim
Hey Tim thanks for the info, I am going to replace both so it is hopefully solved. I stopped by this summer with the 4wd silver van that you thought looked so clean and is. After this it will be the 4wd drive locking hubs that have been gutted so I am a little apprehensive.
Do you have a part # for the fan clutch and where is best place to get these genuine Toyota parts? Thanks again, Randy.
Fan clutch ("coupling assy, fluid") is P/N 16210-73010 (same for all vans EXCEPT 1984).
Here's a few sources for parts:
1stToyotaParts.com
toyotapartszone.com
LithiaToyotaParts.com
Because Lithia is local to me (Springfield, OR), I've done all my ordering from them for several years now,. Their internet site is fairly new. They are quick to let me know if something is no longer available, and because I can pick up locally, I don't pay shipping.
I've had good and not-so-great service from 1stToyotaParts. One problem has been waiting around forever to find out something is discontinued, but they have fast service otherwise. My biggest beef with them is that shipping is always a % of the total order price, even for lightweight parts.
No personal experience with toyotapartszone.
Gwen
Hi Randy! I'm glad you found the forum. Llamavan is correct, the part number is 16210-73010. I see it lists on 1stToyotaParts.com for $94.26.
My favorite place to buy Toyota parts is Tonkin Toyota in Portland, OR, but sadly they dropped their internet parts site. I purchase enough to be on a 1st name basis with the parts guys there, so as a courtesy they still sell to me using the internet price structure. I'm speculating a bit here, but I'm guessing if you went in there and asked if they could match 1stToyotaParts.com's price, they would probably do it.........even if they didn't, at least then you could avoid shipping charges.
Like Llamavan, I have had the same exact experience with 1stToyotaParts.com. I've received absolutely awesome service on one order, then got completely forgotten about and screwed on another (usually due to some part that is NLA). I had to call them once about an order that I had waited 2 weeks for. Turned out the whole order got put on a back burner because of a stupid shift boot they couldn't get. All they had to do was email me or call and I would have told them to just ship the rest and forget about the boot. Then there's the 10% shipping with a minimum of $9.95 regardless how small and light the package (it sucks to get charged $9.95 S&H for a stupid $1.00 O-ring they could have put in an USPS envelope for 43 cents. I could almost see it if they did the same for heavy items too, but no, they ding you extra when that happens. Due to these issues, I now only use them as a last resort. :swear:
Not sure if parts have already been acquired, but thought I'd at least post my experience with http://www.toyotapartszone.com/. They've been helpful on orders, website is easy to follow (especially when you type in your VIN), and pricing seems to be as good as it gets. My LD usually has no interest in ordering parts for me and quote me the highest price they can and tell me it will take 1-2 weeks (at least) to get parts, and this is after they roll their eyes. Cheers, Adrien.
I was playing around the other day and came up with this method of testing a clutch fan. This won't help you identify one that comes on at the wrong temp, but it will tell you if it is functional. If you try this I'd like to remind you that it's at your own risk. It can be very dangerous getting this close to moving fans, belts, and pulleys. Also, don't overdo it with the heat on the thermostat. This is a bimetal coil and can be damaged by excessive heat.
That being said, it was a fun experiment and a useful way to evaluate a fan in question. Enjoy
Click on the image below to view
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...h_MVI_1488.jpg
...haven't seen any method that's quicker or more definitive!
...Imagine that-an '80's toyo mechanic doing something unorthodox:LOL2:
Here's a safer way to test. Note, it's a hot day & the AC is on.
http://youtu.be/4sHCeyOrncA
it almost seems like i can see the different speeds in the video, i can tell when it gets hot enough, the blades look faster
Hello All, a few days ago my cooling fan started staying on all the time. As in, when I start the engine its engaged and it never disengages. Fan clutch issue I imagine, but I am not sure how to diagnose what exactly the problem is. I checked all the sensor plugs around the T stat and they are not loose.
Any pointers would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
John
Sounds like it's time for a new fan clutch. There is a thermostat coil on the front that rotates a shaft. That shaft is probably stuck. You might be able to lube & free it up, but I would consider this a disposable part and simply replace. These typically last 150k miles. If the old one made it that far it doesn't owe you anything. A stuck fan clutch won't hurt anything except your power and your gas mileage. You can expect to see a 3 mpg or more drop with a stuck fan clutch. Tim
Thanks Tim..... I will check it out.
John
That's really funny. My fan probably started to stay on right about when yours did. I bet the temperature change & contraction has something to do with it.
I will say I'm not too upset with my fan being stuck on. I haven't had heat soak once in these 90+ temps.... I'm not really noticing a change in gas mileage; I probably burned just as much stomping on the gas pedal every time I had heat soak.
Went ahead and replaced mine, now that I have a working one I don't think the old one ever turned on since I've owned (3 months) it until the few days before I replaced it when it was stuck on. The old one was packed with dirt in the metal coil from PO's trip to Baja. I am holding on to the old one as a spare in case the dirt was the only issue.
Is it typical that they get stuck 'on' when they go bad? Do they ever break the other way?
The typical failure is they won't come on.............which leads to overheating. It's better when they stick "on" but not typical. Tim
Here's more on clutch fans: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...g-(fan-clutch)
Noticed my fluid coupling assembly (fan clutch) spins independently from the water pump pulley. Is this normal? Should the fan spin without the pulley moving? May be a dumb question...sorry.
Thank you.
The fan clutch will allow the fan to spin at a different speed than the water pump. There is a bimetal thermostat coil on the front of it. When it gets hot (around 200 deg F) this coil moves enough to start changing the valving inside the clutch. It's a variable change that's linear to how hot the t-stat coil is. Typically the fan will spin whenever the engine is running simply due to centrifugal force, but unless the thermostat is engaged it will spin much slower than the pulley (freewheeling). When the temp gets high and the valving changes, the silicone goo inside gets restricted (this makes the clutch engage). The more it engages the faster the fan spins and the faster it spins the more air it will move. When more air moves there's more heat transfer from the radiator to the passing air. As the air gets cooler, the valving opens and the fan begins freewheeling again. The purpose here is to only turn the fan on when it's needed. Fans that run 100% all the time rob fuel economy and horse power. They also make a lot of noise. A correctly functioning fan clutch is a wonderful thing
Due to the placement of the radiator and the air flow characteristics in the engine compartment, the clutch fan is one of the most important parts of the cooling system. Due to the viscosity of cold silicone, it's normal to hear the fan engage for the 1st minute or so when the engine is cold. After the silicone is warmed up you shouldn't hear it engage again until your temperature needle hits about half way on your temp gauge. Then it should run briefly and the needle should return to about 3/8 of the scale. It may not run at all during the winter, but it should definitely see some action in the summer.............especially if you have working AC. Here's some pics of the internal workings of a clutch fan.
Here's the bimetal coil
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ClutchUnit.jpg
Here's a bimetal coil reacting to heat
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps847104b8.gif
Here's a clutch that's opened up
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...v/OpenedUp.jpg
The black propeller looking thing is directly attached to the bimetal coil. The coil moves this when temperature changes. Depending on it's position, it can block or allow the silicone's passage through the slots in the disc I'm holding.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...-statValve.jpg
Awsome info Tim. Thanks. That clip of the coil reacting is great. I got worried when I noticed for the first time the fan spun without any other mechanics moving. I think I read in other thread somewhere someone was fixing their fan clutch because the fan wouldn't roar on a constant basis. Good to know now, it shouldn't be.
Any tricks or tips to inspecting while still connected and a cold engine?
It's going to be several days before engine is running and I have fan and belts back on.. In the past, I haven't had temp issues, I have working AC, & I don't think I have any problems here now. But wanted to check if possible while I have things opened up changing belts.
Thanks
A correctly working fan clutch will roar for a few rev's while cold, and roar again when it kicks in. Most motorists don't notice stuff like this, but if you're paying attention you can hear it (especially When revving the engine while stopped with the window down). But since you haven't had any overheating issues, it's almost a certainty the fan is working correctly. Tim
For obvious reasons it can be dangerous testing these fans & clutches. So I'll start out with the obvious warnings: There are moving parts here and you can get hurt! Keep your hands away from the moving parts! Don't try this at home! If you disregard and do anyway, you do it at your own risk! Okay, nuff said. Here's how I test clutch fans. The 1st video is of poor quality but good enough to get the point across. In order to start it just click on the picture below:
Click on the image below to view
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...h_MVI_1488.jpg
The video below is a little better quality & shows a working fan (testing this way takes a little longer). Sorry about bumbling around.......I get absent minded/distracted at times :dizzy:.
http://youtu.be/4sHCeyOrncA
Excellent videos, Tim - thanks for those! I have a fan clutch or two needing to be rebuilt. Is there anything special to watch or adjust while rebuilding? How much silicone should be added? Should that o-ring around the inside perimeter of the clutch be replaced? I'd think that that's probably where the silicone leaks out. As always, thank you all in advance for your advice.
IMHO these are not worth messing with. I have a Toyota part number for the silicone goo, but no information as to how much to put in there. If you have one that's malfunctioning I would consider it disposable and buy a new one. I believe you can still get these from Toyota for around $150 or you can purchase aftermarket for around $40. I'm running a cheap aftermarket one right now and it's performing well. Tim
I think this may be my next project (issue to be solved). My fuel economy dropped from 24 to 16 recently. I am running a bigger tire and have a low profile solar panel on the top but I think the TPS was also to blame. I replaced that, reset timing and am now getting 19mpg. I am extremely conservative in my driving habits and I fully expect to get back up above 20mpg on the highway. My 22-re pulling a 4wd king cab with canopy would get 24 highway / 26 on good stretches.
Am I unrealistic in my hopes for the 4yE fuel economy?
Thanks for the video and testing scenario Tim. They are very helpful. Oddly I have been fighting an overheating issue too.
I do have one remaining question for anyone....
When I installed the TPS, why are the screw holes slotted? Was I supposed to calibrate or adjust this somehow in relation to the stop screw on the other side? I don't recall the shop manual addressing this at all.
Thank you.
Chris
Thanks for the kudos :wave2:. For the TPS to function correctly it must be correctly adjusted. For all intensive purposes a new (but out of adjustment) TPS is no better than a failed TPS. There's a video link at the end of my 1st post in THIS THREAD that shows how to set it up. If you just want to check it without removing the throttle body, I show how to do that HERE. Good luck & have fun :thmbup:.
BTW, it's much easier pulling the throttle body back off after a recent service. Based on your mileage improvement, it sounds like you may have accidentally got close to the sweet spot, but I'd still want to take it off and recheck. If you really don't want to do that, you could check the ECU for codes. If the TPS code hasn't come back, then you might be okay (your call). Tim
Update on aftermarket fan clutches. My TRW clutch I purchased at Napa made it almost 15k miles before it lost all it's silicone and quit working. Next I purchased a Hayden unit off of Rockauto.com and that one only lasted 5k miles. It was leaking almost from the beginning and finally quit engaging last week. I just purchased an Aisin (OEM) off Rockauto and will be putting it on tomorrow. It cost around $75 but I expect it to last for a long time. Tim
Check out the label on the box. It even has the part number that Toyota calls out for this application #16210-73010.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps78cf41de.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...psd8e8577e.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps92ef8491.jpg
That looks exactly like the OEM one I installed a few months ago. It's the one on the right in this picture:Attachment 1974
Is the fan clutch the same for 2wd and 4wd vans? I've had a bunch of worked preformed on my 4x4 van and I know Tim had mention to keep a healthy and cool running system. I haven't replaced the fan clutch but wanted to order one up so when it's time to replace it it'll be on hand.
Thank you😊
At one point I think there were 2 or 3 different OEM part numbers for these. All would mount the same (interchangeable) so not sure what the difference was (suspect the 4wd ones were a bit more heavy duty?). I haven't checked lately, but I would assume they all cross over to the same part number now. Even if they didn't, I'd still get this one off rockauto than pay double for the one that comes in a Toyota box (I'd consider this Aisin to be every bit as good as one from Toyota.......probably the exact same thing). Tim
I have to say- everyone has their opinions about things like non-OEM thermostats, non-OEM gaskets, etc., but the fan clutch is one thing where I think it's easy to see the difference in quality. When I first got my van, the OEM fan clutch was toast and I just needed something that would let me diagnose other parts of the van. Bought one from AutoZone and it's currently on its way out; has about 20k on it. Will be either rebuilding my original OEM unit or purchasing a new Aisin brand.
Hey Tim, How's that Aisin 75$ aftermarket working since you posted? About to finally pull trigger on one...
It's been awesome so far (no leaks and it engages at appropriate times). The Hayden aftermarket clutch was leaking from day one. I can't believe what a fricken mess that thing made. Talk about the sh*t hitting the fan. Had just overhauled my engine, polished my manifold, painted, cleaned everything spotless, and only 5k miles later there was this nasty black mixture of silicone goo and road grime all over everything. And since the fan sits in the very front, it literally covered EVERYTHING. Of course this silicone stuff is not easy to clean off (nothing cuts it). The stuff that worked the best was silicone spray, so I used that. I finished that job about 2 or 3 k miles ago. I've been meaning to post, but have been putting it off.
Here's some pics of the old one (if you consider 5k miles old) and the mess it made:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...psaea00b44.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...pse888fdec.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps5aef59ce.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...psa459d488.jpg
Here's the new one ready to go back in:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps4c9b0e62.jpg
And here it is all snug in it's new home:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...ps724cfd00.jpg
Thanks Tim for sharing. I'll be putting mine on a few days when it arrives. Everything on my cooling system has been upgraded or replaced except the clutch. I've been suspect about the thing. No overheating still, specially after I upgraded to a high efficiency radiator, but I've ran the tests you suggested and I'm gettin' mixed results. I'd like to drop that temp needle as far as I can..ha.
just watched your Youtube,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sHCeyOrncA
....I was very surprised to see the fan clutch engage at half heat,,
which brings up the question.... are the toyo temp gauges considered accurate?
....mine seem to usually engage the fan clutch at ~3/4 heat.
...and is there a way to test the clutches before installing?
,,,,I've recently gone through installing 2 different fan clutches,, both new,, both don't work!!:wall:
....would it work to heat the base in boiling water or on the heat element a few minutes?
Found a great price for a 3row copper radiator...$220.... http://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ssq...3530&x=21&y=10
Did you read the previous posts in this thread?
.
...sorry Tim,, I read the whole thread,, interesting, but didn't answer my related questions.....
....I was very surprised to see the fan clutch engage at half heat,,
which brings up the question.... are the toyo temp gauges considered accurate?
....mine seem to usually engage the fan clutch at ~3/4 heat.
...and is there a way to test the clutches before installing?
,,,,I've recently gone through installing 2 different fan clutches,, both new,, both don't work!!:wall:
....would it work to heat the base in boiling water or on the heat element a few minutes?
..it was good to see the difference between Hayden and Aisin in your review,, just in time to change my order! :thmbup:
I don't know of a way to test a clutch fan other than installing and testing like shown in post #5. Personally, due to having multiple clutch fan failures, I don't trust used ones, nor would I waste my time installing. After dealing with that AM Hayden, I won't waste my time with AM fan clutches anymore either. I've been running the Aisin now for over 20k miles and it's still performing well.
As to your temp gauge question, they are not always going to read the same. To get a baseline on your gauge, warm the van up and put a meat thermometer in the fill port (be careful removing the cap as it might be under pressure). The van should be running between 180° - 200° F and your van's temp gauge should read between 1/4 - 1/2 travel. Assuming you're in this range (both measurements) then this is the norm for your van (make a mental note). If however your van is running below 180°, then you may have a stuck or missing thermostat. If the temp is good but the gauge is off, you may need a new sender or perhaps a new gauge. I personally like the digital Koso gauges as they are very easy to read, accurate, and inexpensive (around $40). You can find them on Amazon. Tim
.
...thanks Tim,
,,that's a great way to calibrate the temp gauge and an Aisin fan clutch on it's way :thmbup:
...edit,, just called the local Toyo parts place about a thermostat,,, he said there's only one model,, opens at 203F, closes @180F ...that seems high for opening,, in fact I checked the thermo's I had and the toyo parts one was 180,, I'd go with your #'s Tim,,,
....but isn't it true that there's both summer & winter models?
Use Toyota #90916-03046 180° F T-stat. The gasket you need is #16325-63010. Here's a good write-up that Gwen made that should help you replace it: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...n-s-thermostat. Have fun :thmbup:. Tim
BTW, the Toyota T-stat begins to open @180° and depending on several factors may not fully open. If temp keeps rising, it will become fully open @ ~ 200° F. This is the only T-stat I use, and I use it year round.