Christmas dash (dash lights stay on; dash lights come on while driving)

So this one is kicking my butt. (I guess most problems with these vans do:?:). Started off with the Christmas lights. Drove van for about 20 min after Christmas lights and it dies. Ok, replaced alternator and charged battery at O'reilly. They said battery was fine. Then drive about 20 minutes (No christmas lights), van dies, then won't turn over at all. Do nothing but let it sit for several hours, it starts and runs fine for about 5 minutes, then dies again. Charge battery overnight, replace fusible link - the one outside the battery cage. Drives (again no christmas lights) for about 20 minutes and dies again. Let cool off. Starts for a test no problem, but no time for a test drive. Come back to do more diagnostic attempts and battery is dead. (Door had been left open for a while so this is unrelated except that I don't think the battery would have been dead if it had started on a full charge.)

So take battery to Autozone. It tests ok after charge. Take alternator to autozone and have it bench tested. Its good. Go back to van and install everything, van runs for 30 minutes, seems to be exhibiting some signs that the battery is getting low, i.e. the radio starts to make a weird whining sound, and then christmas lights again:(:!

It almost seems to me like something is pulling way too much juice and the alternator just can't keep up. But how to trouble shoot?

Thanks for any suggestions.

If at all possible, I'd start by trying a different battery. "Tests good" and IS good are two different things (as I found out the last time). Also check the wiring from the alternator (the harness and the junction at the "plus box" are vulnerable). But the battery is still where I'd start. If the battery isn't really charging and the alternator gets stressed as a result, the van will "Christmas dash" even though the alternator itself is fine.

Gwen

Yes, I forgot to mention that my last attempt was with a different battery, from my car, which worked fine in my car both before and after the attempt on the van. So it sounds like a new alternator wiring harness to eliminate that as a possibility would be my best bet. Unless there are any other suggestions of something else I should try first, I'll do that and let you know the results.

Solved. So I did something really stupid. I didn't disconnect the battery when I installed my first alternator, and in the process I shorted it out. So it finally tested bad, and they gave me another one, and everything is great now. Thanks for your input.

I've been having the christmas lights again! It's been an ongoing thing with this van, and to date I've replaced the alternator, alternator wiring harness, and the fusible link. Interestingly, my battery tests at 12.5V when the van is off, and at 14.7 with the van at idle, indicating that the alternator is charging the battery. Where do I go from here? The only other thing that looks a little iffy is the negative battery terminal cable that runs under the van. It's a little corroded in the usual blue/green copper corrosion way. Could this cause the christmas lights issue by itself? If not, what else to check? I'm in the middle of moving right now too, so half my tools are at my new place, while my laid-up van is sitting at my old place! Not the best situation, but I need to try and get this figured today so I can get back to moving couches!
Any ideas?

thanks!
-Sam

I think that negative battery cable is just the ground right? You do want to make sure that it is good, but according to your readings it seems like it would be charging. Have you had the battery tested to make sure it is taking a full charge? Has the van left you stranded yet? If I were you, I would have the battery tested as that is easy. After that, you could have the alternator bench tested. Auto parts stores should do both of those tests for free. If neither of those things reveal anything, I would just drive it. I was having christmas lights for a while, and for me it was resolved when the alternator went completely bad and I was able to have it bench tested where I bought it and got another one for free. Sorry I couldn't be more help. Good Luck!

Do you have the drippy power steering pump syndrome? Getting ATF inside your alternator gums up the brushes and can cause them to intermittently make contact.

I had just this problem and tried to take a logical approach - which worked!:

1. Check charge fuse in the fusebox under the dash
2. Check all other fuses or relays/circuit breakers under the dash, in same fuse box/relay/circuit breaker board, reset circuit breakers if necessary
3. Check all fuses/fusible links on the bulkhead/panel behind driver's seat
4. Run the engine and tap the alternator while watching for the alarm/warning lights going off (if brushes are really worn, this can sometimes jar them into a charging position temporarily)
5. Find the fusible link near the battery - I think it is part of the cable - check for full voltage at the circuit braekers/heavy fuses behind driver's seat (UK side drivers seat)
6. Check (SEE BELOW) the regulator behind the glovebox, if my Townace does not have an integral regulator in the alternator
7. If none of these work, remove alternator and test on the bench by spinning with a drill, with a small battery to excite it into action and a load with an ammeter and voltmeter.
8. If alternator is dead, strip and replace brushes/clean up commutator, check diode pack etc.

I found the answer to the above question on AceAnswers, I checked everything on my list and then connected a wire from the F terminal on the regulator (with the regulator plugged in, by slipping a wire into the multiplug) and earthed this wire (this is as per instructions in the Toyota manual). I tried it through a bulb first but it needed to earth directly. This competes the circuit in the alternator and makes it charge fully if it can. The alarm sound went off, the warning lights went out and stayed that way when I removed the wire! I guess the regulator is on the way out and I have tricked it into lasting a bit longer.

Hey everybody!!

I'm new to the site and sure am glad I found you all!! I got an 88 4x4 last year and am in love with my van, I got the fold down bed, Thule box on top and a set of BF All Terrains, this thing is unstopable. What I need to know about is that my dash warning lights are all blinking very sporadically on and off?? I'm about to tear into it but wanted to confront the VanWagon Army first!! Anything helps

:pissed: Hot Howard

Hello and welcome to the site! You posted in the correct spot, but I moved your thread to main Van technical forum because your problem is not 4wd specific (your problem is common to all vans 84-89). The search terms that will bring you the best results are "christmas dash" or "alternator brushes". The information you find should address the fix. To address the cause (and prevent it from happening again right away), use search terms "power steering leak".

Here are a few links to good threads that should help you get the problem resolved. Tim

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...christmas+dash

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...lternator-woes

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...rnator-harness

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...christmas+dash

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...-Steering-Leak

Have fun and be sure to let us know your solution :wnk:. Tim

My 87 cargo van has had intermittently blinking cluster lights for about a year now and I have not yet succeeded in fixing the problem. Everybody seems to agree this is a common problem and indicates a fault in the charging system. This makes sense and seems to be right nearly all of the time but I have been unable to fix the problem despite having gone through the charging system quite thoroughly. I see another thread suggesting that this condition can also be caused by a faulty oil level sensor. Seems odd, I know, but I'm suspicious that this may be the case with my van. First time I had this problem was after I had the oil level sensor out while I was rebuilding the engine and I decided to clean the sensor up a a bit. I sprayed it with some electrical contact cleaner then reinstalled it. Right after that, the oil light came on very briefly a few times when I hit a bump in the road. Oil level was fine and I assume pressure was good ( engine was not hot at all). Then the entire Christmas display started coming on for a second or so - again only when I hit a bump. Figured I would just replace the oil level sensor switch to rule this possibility out but the little thing is quite expensive so now I just put up with the lights coming on for a very brief moment when I hit a bump in the road. It'll go for a few months never coming on at all then it'll start up again - always when hitting a bump. I am assuming the sloshing of the oil around in the pan is related to a faulty oil level switch.
Does this seem like a reasonable possibility or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

At one point I too have experienced "long term intermittent Christmas lights" (went on for over a year). That alternator eventually failed, and when I replaced it the problem was gone. In my case the problem was most likely due to "sticky brushes" caused by a leaky power steering pump or perhaps a faulty voltage regulator. Another possible cause could be a failing harness. The round plug on the back of the alternator with 3 small wires going into it is a stress point for the wires. They wiggle back and forth here and over time (about 20 years or 150k miles) the strands inside begin to break. When all the strands have fractured the result can be intermittent "Christmas dash". If your van has over 150k miles on it and your harness is original, then I'd probably consider replacing it as "preventive maintenance".

If your PS pump is (or has been) dripping fluid on the alternator, then I'd be more suspicious of contaminated brushes. Voltage regulators fail too but in my experience these are pretty tough. I'm not sure what to think about the oil level sensor causing this. My gut tells me no, but I've seen stranger things. Tim

Thanks, I'll have a look at that harness . Blinking warning lights are not something I even want to try and get used to seeing. Every time they blink it bugs me.

I would suspect the alternator. Mine went out in Glacier Park last summer after a minor accident with a lawyer from Helena, He backed up as I was pulling into a parking spot (at maybe 20 mph) and my bumper caught his, it was quite a jolt. When I restarted and started up to Logan pass we got a nasty electrcal/plastic burning smell in the cabin, I thought it was the plastic cap to an oil bottle I lost in the engine compartment earlier but the alternator fried shortly thereafter.

These rebuilt alternators must have some component that is susceptible to nasty jolts and causes a short (Internal voltage regulator?), your correlation with bumps makes sense to me. I would at least make sure to carry a spare alternator on long trips.:redvan:

Greetings,

I have posted on TVP forum but trust the experience here now a days.
See http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum...hp?f=8&t=10094

My Christmas lights are on, the battery is charged yet I believe the alternator is not charging battery once van is running (remains in 12s on volt meter). ALT has been bench tested and is OK. The catch is that when the RPMs go above 2800-3000, the lights go off until RPMs drop below. Could a fusible link or cable be loose? Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks again to this great community for keeping Stanly running. :bluevan:

Usually the symptoms you describe mean a failed alternator. When you had it bench tested was it done by a seasoned tech or a pimply faced counter person? Assuming the alternator is actually good, then the next most likely problem is a bad alternator wiring harness. These harnesses tend to fail right where the small wires go into the round plastic plug. The wires fatigue & break inside the insulation (so it may pass a visual inspection but still be bad).

There are plenty of threads on this site that contain the information you are looking for. Here's one to get you started: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...rnator+harness. Good luck. Tim

PS: Your issue doesn't sound to me like a bad fusible link, but it's never a bad idea to inspect them from time to time. Here's a thread that shows locations and describes function: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...t=fusible+link

I had a family emergency today and had to drive the van hard. Starting out from a light when switching from 2 to 3rd the tranny oil temp light, battery charge, and radiator lights went on (but not check engine). I had to drive for another half hour to get home ( didn't want to shut it down and get stuck) , pulled it in the garage, turned it off and on but lights are still on. Fluids are fine. Do I have to do a code reset? Seems fine now, no weird smells etc. Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.

It sounds like a failed alternator. Check the battery voltage while it's running. There should be 13.5 - 14.8 volts. Anything outside of that range indicates an issue with the alternator, a fusible link, or faulty wiring. By far alternator failures are the most common. If the alternator is covered in ATF (from the power steering pump) then you should fix that leak before repair/replacement of the alternator or you'll be facing the same issue again in the near future. Tim

Thanks Tim, I will test it in the morning.

Right again Tim, no power coming from the alternator. I have a rebuilt on the way and a power steering pump too. Gonna change them both on Thursday. Thanks again.

Hi all,

i just bought a 1988 Toyota van today and i'm very proud to own that car! 438 000km or 273 500 miles. i'm the second owner :thmbup:

Of course there is some problem i have to solve and i hope this forum will help me.

first, sometime, while i'm on the road, all the warning lights in the dash are blinking, especially when the road is rough.. I think it's a bad ground (rust).
did someone had this problem? the last owner think it have link with alternator and diodes. What do you think? in my opinion it look like a bad ground contact.

secondo, i have a play with the steering while i'm driving, especially at low speed. there is a specific part to change (common problem)?

thanks for your help. Now i have to go, i have to write in an excel sheet the last 24 years of maintenance of the van :yes:

cheers!

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your recent acquisition.

As to the dash lights, that issue is commonly referred to as "christmas lights" do a search on the forum for the "fusible link" thread.
All your answers are awaiting you there.

As far as the steering goes, there are lots of things that can produce excessive play in the fr end, especially on the 4wd models.
Best check it out properly (or have someone you trust look at it for you).
BB

thank you burntboot,

i noticed a specific detail about my christmas dash light problem, is it's occurs at 60 mph and above... someone had the same symptom?

thank again!

It's the first thing we all had to fix on our old vans....check the fusible link articles....they are well written and easy to decipher. I believe there are at least 2 maybe even 3 that you need to replace with fuses or fusible link available at any auto parts store. My old van (Scooby) did the Christmas tree thing at high speeds on and on rough roads before I replaced links 1 and 2. They are in the battery compartment. Probably the easist issue to fix that you'll ever run accross on your van

An alternator heading south can also cause the xmas lights. Replacing mine fixed the issue.

after i cleaned fusible link no.3 and checked no1 and 2 (looks fine), my problem is still there. Have you replaced fusible link 1 and 2 with common fuseholder? if yes, which amp fuse did you used for each one?

if i understand well how fusible link works, current flows thru them with no resistance and if the fusible link have problem, resistance will increase (checking with a voltmeter) is it ok?

but now i'm confused because i've just talked few minutes ago with the last owner of the van and he told me he changed the alternator 4 years ago due to christmas light problem, then 6 month after the christmas light come again. I asked him if the power steering pump has been changed or seals changed, he said no. For me it sounds like a leaking power steering pump on the alternator.

My question is: how to check fusible links and be sure they are fine before go further with power steering/alternator investigation?

Visual inspection of the fusible links is usually adequate. Just make sure they are clean, free of corrosion, and no burns. In my experience, intermittent "christmas dash" has usually been caused by power steering fluid fowling up the brushes inside the alternator.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...lternator-woes

ok. i think my fusibles link are good.

There is another test i can do to be sure the problem is the alternator? (checking voltage at the battery? or something else?)

Any suggestions where to buy a good remanufactured power steering pump? I've read changing all seal on the PS pump is not the best alternative because "internal" leak.

on a scale from 0-10, 0 is very easy, 10 is very hard, what is the difficulty to change PS pump and alternator by myself? I have basic mechanic knowledge, i don't have specialized tools.

is the alternator oily on top? or look like its been splattered on by dripping ps fluid? removing pump and alt. are i'd say a 2 1/2 to 3 in difficulty. The book says to use ps belt to tension ps pulley enough to get the pulley nut loose. didn't work for me so I slid up the fan cover up a little and used a makita impact drill with some socket extensions and pulled the belt tight around the pulley and had a friend get the nut off. besides that pretty straight forward.

my alternator is dirty but "dry" i means the mud on it is dry and uniform. last owner puted so much grease againt rust, it could be this stuff on the alternator. I inserted a white clean rag just under the ps pump, starting engine fews minutes while i turned steering full left and full right 2-3 times. Rag was dry, no leak. I don't know if this way i can detect any leak but i loose nothing to try.

i continued this evening with some others test. I have a 12v voltage/alternator reader. i started the engine then tested front cigarette lighter: 13.5-14.4 volts. tested battery, same reading. i took the car on the highway. voltage was fine every time. when christmas light came on, voltage on the reader was normal, about 14.3 volts. nothing changed on the reader while the christmas lights were on.

but i realized to be able to activate the "christmas light" i have to release the gas pedal quickly at high engine revolution, and the christmas lights comes on. i tested the same at speed 1, i go maybe at 5-10 mph then i release the pedal gas quickly then christmas lights are on just the time the car shake a fraction of second. I conclude the christmas lights comes on when engine/transmission are moving, like releasing the gas pedal at hi revolution of the engine. I would like this test confirm me that my alternator have nothing to do with the christmas light problem but have something to do when engine moving..... (like a quick deceleration)

any thoughts about this situation? can i still consider alternator or fusible link the cause of the christmas lights trouble?

Sounds like brushes to me. This is what mine did when the brushes got fowled up with ATF. If you click on the link in my previous post it shows what I found in my alternator when I had the same problem. The brushes were still making "good enough" contact to keep my battery up but I believe this contact was intermittent. It's the intermittent contact that made the "christmas dash" occur. Eventually, over the course of about 3 or 4 months the dash lights stayed on longer & longer until they stayed on all the time. That's when I pulled the alternator and took that picture "your brushes on ATF". A new set of brushes from Toyota cured the issue. Of course your results may vary (as to cause), but I believe your issue to be inside the alternator or perhaps damaged wires on the alternator harness. At any rate, I think removing, tearing down, and/or replacing the alternator is your next course of action. Tim

Tim's advice is right on the money, follow what he says and you wont go wrong.
As to the PS pump. There are lots of reports on questionable rebuilds out there.
Some seem good others not so much.
New are still available but as they are made from unobtainium they are horribly expensive (at least up here).

When you checked your pump for leaks, did you make sure the system was full?

They are NOT hard to overhaul.
I had a couple of spare pumps lying around and ended up making one good one from the pieces of 2 pumps.

The upside is that I KNOW that every soft part has been replaced.
I also polished the vanes and the shaft and made sure everything was "matched" to each other.
(this was only an issue as I was combing various parts from different pumps, because the "good" one had an excessively worn rear bushing)
( I say "good" because it was obviously a "new" rebuild but not knowing the history, I didn't trust it, good thing I didn't)

As for an internal leak, I wouldn't worry too much about that, it would have to be badly worn (and very noisy) for that too happen.
It is likely the people that made those comments didn't make sure that the vanes were able to move smoothly and the sticking caused their
"internal" leak.

I used the OEM o/h kit straight from Toyota, It came with a specially formed seal, I assume its supposed to help deal with the excessive heat.
If you order just the shaft seal, you only get the standard seal so in my mind the kit was worth springing for.
the other advantage of the kit is it contains all the soft parts required.
No worrying about wether the O-rings you found locally will be exactly the right size (close doesn't help here) or be compatible with ATF.
I like to keep repairs as straightforward as possible, the more potential problems you eliminate up front, the more likely you are to have a successful repair.

As to getting the pulley nut off, I have a pair of vice grips that have a chain attachment, worked like a charm for holding the pulley
while I cracked the nut loose, also handy for being able to torque the nut to spec when done.
It is worthwhile wrapping a rag around the pulley as the chain will have a tendency to dig into the pulley and leave little divots, the rag solves that issue.

For what it's worth, my pump was only "seeping" and I didn't pay it much mind, then one day, driving on the highway, the front seal let go.
The only indication (from a drivers perspective) was solid christmas lights, it was only when I stopped and lifted the hood that I found the mess.
If you're actioning your alternator, it would be prudent to deal with the pump at the same time, if only to avoid issues down the road.
BB

Hi all,

thanks for all your thread about the subject. I finally found the problem. It's a bad harness. my mechanic touched the connector on the alternator while the engine is running and suddenly all the lights where on steady. While he played with the harness i told him the status of the lights in the dash until he found the way to play with the connector that eliminates christmas lights.

For now the problem is solved but i will order a new alternator harness, or does anyone know another way to find a connector (cheapest way), like another toyota alternator harness (camry, corolla) in the late 80's? If i could break the cost of buying an entire alternator harness i will do.

i'm happy that my power steering pump is ok and my alternator too ($$$) :dance2:

If available, installing a new van alternator harness is the best way to go. Recently I've heard reports the van alternator harness is NLA (No Longer Available), but I haven't personally tried to order one in over a year. I'm guessing a Camry harness or others from the same era are similar but probably don't have the oil level wires included. I would also expect wire lengths to be different............so probably not worth the trouble. If you go with a harness from a "non-van" I would probably get one from a salvage yard then modify as required to fit. At least you would get the round connector & associated wires that go into the back of the alternator. You could always fabricate your own harness like I did (in the linked thread above). The conductors inside the round connector are regular 1/4" spade connectors. The round connector is nice for weatherproofing reasons & it helps minimize confusion of "what wire goes where", but it can be deleted and replaced with standard wire & connectors. Tim

PS: I usually don't put much stock in reports of parts no longer being available. I have found & purchased several new parts from Toyota AFTER being told by others they were NLA (so don't let that discourage you from trying).

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just hijack this one. My 87 developed the xmas lights and associated symptoms a few years ago which would occur intermittently. This would happen if the van had been driven continuously for a long period (over an hour) and the dash lights would usually flash when there was some additional strain (going up a hill or accelerating to pass) Along with the lights display. there were signs of a momentary power disruption (cruise control kicking out, head lights flickering, etc.) I ignored the issue for a long time, but after aborting a road trip when the symptoms became particularly persistent and we were heading into territory where a breakdown would have been more than inconvenient I decided to deal with it. Although battery charging had never been an issue, I decided to replace the alternator and since then (over a year ago) had not experienced the problem.
Now, on the first long drive after completing some major engine work, something similar is going on. This time, after driving for 3+ hours on the freeway in hot weather (high 90s) the radio stpped playing, cruise control kicked off, the fan started making funny sounds, dash lights dimmed and when I switched the headlights on, the engine had a slight hesitation. No indicator lights of any kind came on when this happened. We were about 30 miles from our destination at this point, so I switched off all accessories, used only the running lights and kept going. As soon as we got off the freeway and slowed down, the dash lights came up to full brightness, the radio worked again, headlights were bright. The next morning the van started fine and in the driving we have done since (all the less than 1/2 hour) there have been no issues. I checked all the fusible links back at the battery box and they all look just fine. I put a meter on the the 1.25b and 2.0l and they don't show high resistance. I cleaned up the contacts on them, replaced the + battery terminal clamp (strap type which was partially cracked), which is about the best I can do in the field with almost no tools. We're heading home today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but thought I would see if anyone has suggestions for possible causes/cures.

Sounds like a temporary charge system failure. Of course you already know that. The question is what component is acting up. By far the alternator is the most likely. Unless you got a factory Denso rebuild I'd be leaning in that direction. Otherwise, I guess you'll just have to wait for it to act up again in order to troubleshoot. Hopefully it won't happen when you're far from home. Probably a good idea to start carrying a spare alternator around with you until you get to the bottom of this. Tim

Since a rebuilt alternator fixed (temporarily) the problem before, I suspected it might be the source this time around. A couple of things puzzle me though: Why, when the alt. is temporarily not charging, does the battery not provide the needed juice? The van did continue to run, so, there was power there. Is it just that the batt. cannot put out enough amps for a longer period to supply the ignition and accessories? Second question is why the alt. light doesn't come on if the system is not charging. On the drive home yesterday (Hood River to Seattle) there was only a brief instance of the problem, again after about 3 hours of driving. I guess I'll order an alternator.

I just checked online for alternators. Rock Auto has 5 choices: Pure Energy, ACDELCO, Beck/Arnley, Denso, Remy (premium reman). Not much difference in price. Is one of these likely to be better than the others? Is the one listed as Denso going to be rebuilt by them? 1st Toyota doesn't seem to offer a complete alternator, only parts. It occurs to me that I may very well have dripped some PS fluid into the alt. during the work I did recently. Should I try changing the brushes?

The ones listed as Denso #210-0272 or #210-0115 ARE rebuilt by Denso. To my knowledge all the other brands are still Denso's, but they have been rebuilt by other remanufacturers. I've tried several of these brands & have formed the opinion that Denso is the only one that can rebuild these alternators to be somewhat reliable. Since it is their product they understand it the best. I think Denso's rebuilds are as good as their new ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigeo

Since a rebuilt alternator fixed (temporarily) the problem before, I suspected it might be the source this time around. A couple of things puzzle me though: Why, when the alt. is temporarily not charging, does the battery not provide the needed juice? The van did continue to run, so, there was power there. Is it just that the batt. cannot put out enough amps for a longer period to supply the ignition and accessories? Second question is why the alt. light doesn't come on if the system is not charging. On the drive home yesterday (Hood River to Seattle) there was only a brief instance of the problem, again after about 3 hours of driving. I guess I'll order an alternator.

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Too many variables to know for sure, but the electronic ignition on your van needs a minimum amount of voltage to run (somewhere around 10.5V). If your battery becomes discharged........say 70% or so, the voltage may drop too low when other accessories are running. When you turn them off the amperage is reduced allowing the volts to bounce back a bit. So yes, the battery does provide the needed juice, but only while a charge remains. At some point the voltage will drop too low and the van will die.

Usually a charging system problem is accompanied by warning lights. This doesn't always happen though. I've had alternators fail before with no warning. On one occasion the only warning I had was the radio cutting out when I stepped on the brakes (the additional draw of the brake lights caused voltage to drop & the radio to cut out). Fortunately for me the radio required more voltage to play than the van needed to run. This afforded me the luxury of finding a shady place to park and install my spare alternator. I drove my driver's side front wheel up on the curb before shutting it off :)>:. Tim

PS: Wouldn't hurt to try brushes 1st. IMHO though it's a good idea to carry a spare alternator around. If you don't already have one, I'd recommend swapping the Denso rebuild in, then fixing you old and carrying that one as a spare. On the plus side, if you get the Denso, it's unlikely you will need the spare..........at least for a long, long time.

Thanks Tim. Next (virtual) stop, Rock Auto.