LBT - You should just go buy a timing light, they have become quite inexpensive in the last 10 years.
Sadly, things like setting timing, adjusting carbs or doing house plumbing with copper, are all "things of the past" and many of the current practitioners are not well versed in the "old ways".
Keep in mind there have been a few people that have had harmonic balancers that have rotated which moves the timing mark from it's correct location. If the inspections are looking at correct timing based purely on that mark than your timing may in fact have been correct even though the tech and your timing mark say it isn't.
man, i feel sorry for you cali guys...damn van passes emissions and they still mess with you...dont you have to remove the passenger side engine access panel to even shoot a timing gun on the harmonic balancer?!?
Re: Timing, Smog, and Loss of Power-Help!
The first time they failed me was because the hose coming off the air boot that originally went to the A/C idle up diapgragm was plugged with a bolt. My van didn't have A/C when I bought nor does it now. The smog guy said it was EGR on the printout. Saw that after he told me it failed of course. When I said I didnt think that hose was emissions repated he started talking about how the state is cracking down and giving citations. I wasnt mad at the guy. Just the whole situation. The second time I went back is when he said the timing was off. So I had to drive there 3 times total, polluting all the more, take off work, pay more, be punished for not being able to afford a car from 2015. I wish I hadn't forgot about that damn hose at least.Originally Posted by boogieman
Its not like I WANT to pollute or think its all a sham, but it starts to feel like a slap in the face over and over after a while. By the way, my hydrocarbon numbers went up and almost made ir fail smog the second time after they fussed with the timing.
Last edited by LightBlueToy; 08-30-2018 at 11:56 PM.
Ok, after calls to half a dozen smog places and getting turned down, with excuses from pre 90’ cars are too tough to get an accurate rpm reading, to people knowing these vans or rather how to access the motor and denying it out right I found someone local.
Took my van in today, and getting everything dialed in went through the test, passed the sniffer, rolling test, got to evap test and failed. Tech explained it was losing pressure somewhere between filler neck of gas tank and pipe to charcoal canister.
Looked (searched, but no success) in forum any ideas what is causing van to fail? Tech says it is either leak at filler neck, somewhere on tank or the rubber hose from tank to charcoal canister.
thanks
1987 4wd 5spd Cargo van (uncut)-modding in 3,2,1
Glad I don't live in Cali.
Considering that we never cared about evap systems till '95 it seems bizarre that they even bother looking at that side of things.
How the heck do they even test that system?
All that said, there isn't much to check.
If it were me, I would pull the top of the air filter box and get in behind it with a mirror and light and see if you can get a look at the topside of the canister.
Granted you don't live in the rust belt so may not apply, but from underneath mine looked brand new, topside where the alum cap attaches to the steel body was an entirely different story
Worth taking a look.
BB
I been trying to get my van legal to pass smog but seem to be having a hard time. ive done a very basic tune up on the van ie plugs, air filter, fuel filter, fresh fluids. And tried to smog but failed horribly. Nox was way to high as well as the HC fluctuates anywhere from 15-2000. tech said timing and idle is off. Well i got the timing set to 12° but its till idles in about the 800-900 range. It all spits put the exhaust. After doing so the nox has come down to acceptable ranges and passes at idle and 15mph but is still to high at 25mph.
I dont feel like its the convertor due to the fact servers recorders show its only a few years old. I feel like it has something to do with either egr or the o2 sensor but im kinda stumped.
Ive tried blowing out the egr and it seems clear though i did get alot of dust out of one line. Also I found the bvsv has broken off and has been by passed.
My next step is to replace the o2 sensor I guess and try running some injector cleaner though the engine to see if that helps. But idk where to go from there if it doesn’t
Can you post a pic of the numbers on the smog sheet?
The catalytic converters on these vans are set way back. If the replacement cat isn't OEM quality it won't heat up properly, and won't last. I run fiberglass header wrap from the manifold collector all the way to the cat. This helps keep the cat hot, and working properly. I originally did this for smog reasons and it helped tremendously.
Realized, I never updated this post. I pulled an evap canister from a van at PnP and removed all the hard & soft lines from fuel filler to tank and then from tank to canister. Pressure tested hard lines, and replaced all the soft lines. Passed no problems.
@Sperrunner , i have had cars that were tough to pass before and might have some ideas. Feel free to PM me. Learned some tricks from Corvette forums.
1987 4wd 5spd Cargo van (uncut)-modding in 3,2,1
I dont have the original sheets on me but at 25mpg my nox was about 3800. After a tune up and proper timing i got the nox to about 1500 at 25 mpg. Which is the speed im worried about rn because at 15mpg im now in acceptable ranges.
As for the cat it looks after market judging by it being welded in. And its sits above 23rd the way back in the exhaust system.
I passed the evap test. But im failing due to nox. And I think it had something to do with the engine not running perfectly. I can’t actually get the engine to idle at 750 with 12° of timing.it idles like 850. Its also popping out the exhaust.
If your HC and CO are good at both 15 and 25 then it would seem the engine is running efficient.
NOx emissions are effected by increased cylinder temperatures. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) helps by reducing cylinder temps, as does proper ignition timing. Another obvious way to reduce inside cylinder temperatures is to keep the engine cool at the proper operating temperature.
In order to reduce emissions even further (once it is established that the engine is running properly) a catalytic converter is used. When the cat is heated, the various metals and precious metals react with harmful emissions and convert them into less harmful emissions. A properly working and heated cat can clean up the emissions of even a poorly running engine. This is why (for emissions reasons) it is important to make the engine run perfect before condemning the cat.
If your engine temp, EGR, and timing are good, I would suspect the cat. If its legal in CA I would try the header wrap on the exhaust prior to getting a new cat. Just my two cents.
Im not 100% sure if my egr is good. Ive blow through it and it seems to flow ok. Though alot of debris came from one line. Also the bvsv is snapped off and bypassed.
My first corse of action was gunna be trying to replace the egr system, o2 sensor and see if running some seafoam though will help clean all the carbon deposits on the pistons and valves
Yeah, fix the EGR system. Sounds like it isn't functioning. I like seafoam, works great. Replacing the O2 won't hurt, but if your HC, and CO are good I would guess it's not needed (replacing them periodically is good insurance anyhow). I used a narrowband O2 gauge to monitor mine, cheap and shows you how fast it's responding.
Hc is fine at 15 and 25 but it goes crazy at idle from 15 - 2000 hc.
Nox is ok at idle and 15mph but still high at 25mph
I know you've covered some of these, I'm just listing everything I can think of.
Idle pop, and random high idle HC:
Cap, rotor, wires, timing
Vacuum leak
Computer doesn't know it's idling, check TPS
Slow O2
Bad carbon build up, slow drip the seafoam into a vacuum line like an IV
High NOx at speed:
Timing too advanced
EGR
Catalytic converter
You may also want to make sure your timing marks are correct on your balancer.
Getting into trouble with CA smog here on my 1984 Toyota Van.
It didn't pass. It barely failed on NO, and it was smoking. It also has smelled weird for a while.
It appears to be burning oil. The smog guys said I should do a compression test and a cylinder leakdown test. The valve guides might be messed up.
Other people have said the rings might be worn out. Of course I want to fix all that stuff, but unfortunately I don't have much time left before the certification needs to be renewed.
I guess what is happening is oil is leaking into the exhaust.
I put some 91 in the engine and the Guaranteed to Pass stuff. I'm going to drive it on the highway a lot and try to burn through the whole tank and see if that cleans it up.
I also picked up the Lucas Fuel System Cleaner but I haven't put that in yet.
I also had someone tell me you could cut the cat off and clean it, but other people have told me that won't work, it's not like, a reusable component. I can weld so if it's actually something to try I could.
Of course I want to take the whole engine apart and fix the leak, but I need to get this to pass with the time I have left.
Anyone have some input? Are all those weird cleaning additives like Guaranteed to Pass and Lucas BS?
Or does anyone want to buy this thing? Because if I can't fix this I might have to junk it.
Last edited by jfenwick; 06-21-2020 at 02:18 PM.
run 20-50W. I have been using this in my high mileage vans for 30 years. What is the mileage? If your engine runs rough or stalls I would do a compression check. If you have readings below 100PSI in any cylinder that cylinder is effectively dead and not burning the fuel mixture and that being dumped into the exhaust will raise your NOX emissions. Start with Cylinder 4. My 3Y failed the emissions like yours is doing (back in 1993)and I had 90PSI in cylinder 4. Got to the point I had to feather the throttle to keep it running
I’m in CA with an 84. Mine doesn’t smoke but runs very rich. You can smell it at idle. Yet it passed 2 years ago with a CARB legal Catalytic Convertor that I got from Rock Auto for around $200. Also the rich smell went away. Until I changed it back to the old CC 3 days later knowing it would be destroyed by the unburned hydrocarbons. I’m pretty sure my original injectors need cleaning. Poor gas mileage.
some places check the smoke more than others. My guy revs it and then runs around to the back to check. So try 50 weight For the smoke and a new cat for the Nox.
edit. Unfortunately the only CARB cat they have now is $436 at RockAuto
Oh man everything has been so hectic, it was actually the HC it failed on and I wrote that wrong a couple posts back.
Ok I switched it to 20W-50. I've been trying to burn through the whole tank of 91 before I go back.
I might also clean the MAF sensor before I go back.
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