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Thread: Charging Air Conditioning System

  1. #81
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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Quote Originally Posted by timsrv View Post
    Based on what you said, at this point I would have very little confidence in that shop & certainly would not trust their latest diagnosis. If you cannot do this yourself, I'd be looking for another shop to take it to. If you do indeed have a bad condenser, I would keep an eye out for salvage yard parts and/or "parting-out" posts on craigslist. Good luck. Tim

    PS: Depending on where the condenser leak is, it may be reparable. Did they pinpoint the leak? Leaks are usually identified by putting dye into the system, then the leak(s) will usually become easy to spot. Tim
    Since these guys got the AC working last summer for what seemed like a reasonable price and the fact that they have done other work that I was happy with, I have been giving them the benefit of the doubt. They haven't charged me beyond the initial repair and they have put a fair amount of time into it, so I don't question their honesty, but I have come to the conclusion that AC isn't their strong point. They did say that dye was used to determine that the the condenser is leaking. AC work is where I draw the line for DIY car repairs, so I guess I'm going to keep looking for someone to fix this for me or sweat out the next few weeks and just keep living without AC.
    r
    As for the condenser, would the one from my 86 2wd with front and rear AC work in the 87 4wd? From the notes on parts shown on Rock Auto (not available) it seems that a 4wd condenser would be different.

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    If both vans are there, get underneath and measure/compare. I'm guessing the 2wd has 2 condensers (both smaller) one vertical in front of the radiator and the other horizontal under the front. The 4wd probably only has 1 bigger horizontal one under the front. Tim

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    While overhauling my engine I decided to chuck the old AC compressor and go for a new one. The old one was making some rattling sounds and had 300K on it.
    So the shop installed a new compressor and dryer. Evac the system converted to 134 and charged it up. Not real cold. I would say cool when at mid 80's outside. Being in Florida I need this thing to get cold. Am I dreaming here and this will never get cold? The guy told me that the 134 in these older systems is not as good as the R12 and will not provide the kind of cooling it was designed for. Wish I knew that before. So is the the deal or is there something we are missing to get this thing to at least be able to cool enough so I don't have to sit in sweat.

    I insulated the engine covers with Dynamite Hood shield. Man that stuff works great. I would recommend it. The engine cover that was super hot is not room temp.

    But still not enough to recover the ac.

    I guess I will measure the cold output to see where it is. I know this is stupid since the air going in will be proportional to the air coming out but I can at least compare to other vehicles.

    He did tell me to use both the front and the back systems all the time. That using both has little effect on the temp level. I did this but the rear one keeps blowing the CB. Schematic calls for a 30 AMP CB but the van only has 20 Amps installed. They look original. Anybody know?

    MT

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    I hate AC issues and am far from an expert but here's the little I do know

    R12 is significantly more efficient, as a coolant, than R134.
    Systems designed to run on R134 are designed to work efficiently with that freon. (changes to evaporators, condensers and compressors to name a few)
    An R12 system thats been converted, has to work harder (compressor cycles more frequently).
    The lubricating oil (PAG) is not compatible between the 2 freons and the R134 PAG oil will eat R12 o-rings.
    The habit when converting, is to only replace o-rings that get disturbed.
    I assume proper procedures were followed for replacing the compressor?
    System needs to be vacuumed, compressor drained, correct PAG oil measured and added among a host of other things.

    The actual R134 molecule is much smaller than the R12 molecule, as a result, converted systems often develop leaks soon after a conversion.
    (Its a bit like running 0W30 oil in an engine designed to run on 20W50)

    Even the best conversions won't be as cool as the original freon, IIRC we were getting vent temps about 5-10*F warmer than R12 specs.
    Converted systems are also very intolerant of any deficiency, everything has to be working at its best.
    When we first started doing them we had a lot of expansion valve failures and quickly got into the habit of just replacing them as a matter of course.
    (fewer headaches and happier customers)
    The expansion valve is located at each evaporator.

    An AC tech that knows his stuff should be able to figure it all out but those guys seem pretty rare.
    I would be tempted to replace both Exp valves, refill and retest function.

    If you find that even with everything dialled in, cooling is still insufficient there is one other option but it's not for the faint of heart.

    There is a product out there, the one I am familiar with is RedTek but there are others.
    Essentially it is propane with a strong pine scent added, that way if you ever do spring a leak, you will know right away.

    RT is as, if not more efficient, than R12 as a refrigerant and it won't be as prone to leaks and will provide full system performance.
    I was skeptical in the beginning probably due to a bad propane BBQ experience when young, but then I looked into the flammability of R134 and realized that while it has a higher flashpoint it is not without issue and if it does leak, you can't smell it.
    Propane is also heavier than air so a leak should just dissipate into the atmosphere below the vehicle.
    I have never found an AC shop that will condone its use.

    My personal experience was on our Jag several years ago, system had been condemned due to leaks and sucked dry and the estimate was north of $2K to resurrect.
    As I had nothing to lose I felt it was worth the test drive and for $100 the system was back up and running in an afternoon with no hard parts replaced.
    System was still running cold when we sold it 2 yrs later. YMMV
    BB

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Wow! Well the guy that did the work seems to know his stuff but is very conservative in his actions. He goes by the numbers for sure. Your suggestion to rebuild the engine was the best move I made and I thank you for that. Plus I learned a ton about the process. I was able to be involved with every aspect of the process. Man, tons of fun.
    So when he was re-installing the engine he asked about the compressor issue. He suggested to splurge and get a new compressor since it had this chatter and 300K on it. So I did. He would not even think about going back to R12. It was a 134 conversion.

    He did all the things you mentioned, even the O rings. But it just does not get real cold. By July it will be hotter than hell here and it will never recover at the rate it cools now.

    So if I decide to go the RedTek product type is it another evac, dryer, O rings and compressor oil again?

    I really doubt he would do it. But I have a friend that can evac it and I can put in the freon replacement.

    I would just have to find a few pounds of the stuff.

    Any input is always appreciated.
    BTW, any thoughts on my Circuit Breaker value question?
    I looked again today and verified that the service manual calls for a 30 amp breaker and not a 20 which is in there.

    Thanks Again for your input BB

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Glad to hear the engine experience worked out well.

    As to the CB, if the manual calls for a 30A I would change out the 20A to proper spec and see how it goes, I would not exceed the original spec though.

    RedTek and equivalent brands are available at most autoparts retailers, up here CTC, UAP and a host of other places.
    Shouldn't be hard to find if you decide to go that route.
    As far as changing over, it only needs to be sucked dry, RT is compatible with both PAG oils.
    One more consideration, going the RT route will likely void any warranties on parts and labour so you may need to consider that aspect too.

    I would want to make sure that the system is operating as efficiently as possible and if either exp valve is compromised, the RT won't solve that.
    You may want to talk to your guy and see if he feels there would be any merit in replacing them or perhaps he already has?

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Wow, thanks BB. For sure the X valves have not been replaced. I will get those done and proceed.

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    The RT, or what is propane and butane, seems to work pretty well in either system and with both oils. It's cheap and when I put it in, it pumps out pretty cold. My system was empty when i charged it, and I was using a new compressor, but I didn't change anything else. I just added some oil. My friend used it to top off his system and used it with R134 already in the system, and said they would work together fine. He works in the AC field, for a company that does AC system installations in camper trailers, and it seems to still be working in his car just fine after a year.

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Still working on getting my air up and running. Now, after the engine has been rebuilt with a new compressor it has not been able to hold R134. They have refilled 3 times already and claim they cannot find the leak. They already replaced the o rings but nothing has been done in the evaporator cases.

    By a stroke of luck I found a small shop that only works on Toyota's. I went to see him and he knew our van, in fact he own 2 of them. I told him the story and he told me that since they did not find any die leakage in the obvious spots it is most like in one or both evaporators. I asked him if he could service it and he told me that the parts are questionable. He claimed that even Rock Auto parts don't fit and you don't know it till you get them and put them in. He will not make shift it. It has to be the right fit or he will walk away.

    Does anyone know where I can get the correct evaporators for my 1986 LE 2.2 van???

    I will assume the worse in that both front and back may need replacing.

    Any help would be so much appreciated. I am in Florida and I am cooking like a hamburger in my seat.

    I already laid in Dyomat hood insulating material for both the seat engine cover and the extended cover also. This has reduced the heat substantially. With so much glass in our vans the AC is the thing left to get reasonably comfortable.

    Thank all of you in advance

    MT

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    This is exactly why I hate AC system revivals.

    That being said, if they put dye in, in HAS to be going somewhere.
    Even if one or both of the evap's are leaking, even if hidden deep within, you'd think there would be some detectable evidence.
    Are they leak checking with just a black-light or are they using a sniffer too?
    Sniffers are really good at finding leaks in Evap's.

    How fast does the freon leak out, like a day or a month?
    Sealants(stop leak) are available and may be an option, but will depend on the severity of the leak.
    Not too mention that stopleak after an expensive repair just doesn't seem right but...

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    Thumbs down Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    I just replaced my front expansion valve and still not getting any cool air in the front. I’m about to give up and let a shop handle it because AC systems are beyond my knowledge. None of the lines are clogged, my blower motor and evaporator are fine. I really don’t know what would be preventing the front from not producing any cool air.

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Hey BB!

    It was leaking out of the system in a few days. So I finally brought it to another AC guy that seemed to have his act together. He filled it back up with 134 and die and found no leakes anywhere. He knew it would come back so we just waited. I took it and it worked as well as it will ever with 134 but failed again in 4 days. But now all that die came out and he found it coming out of the new compressor. It was leaking with drips coming off the bolts.

    So, since the compressor is under warranty a new one will be delivered, maybe tomorrow, and this new guy will install.

    But I have learned a lot about the AC system it self. There is a bunch of plumbing but due to the twin system but that is understandable. It is actually pretty easy to work on with both evaporators being readily accessible and all the plumbing under neath. But I agree, this is for AC guys. Maybe we can charge with cans but that is about the limit.

    Will keep you posted on the results.

    MT

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Thats great news.
    Fingers crossed that the new compressor solves all the issues.
    BB

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    OK, the new compressor is in. Blowing cold but sure would like more. May go the TekRed route after I know this leak is over.

    Will keep you advised.

    Got another issue with Transmission. Have not found Jack on this issue in TVT, will start a new thread.

    Thanks again BB

    MT

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    Re: low side PSI? Charging Air Conditioning System

    just topped off with redtek. after 1.5 - 2 years AC had gone from cold to slightly cool air. added one can and it's blowing cold again.

    one question: while charging i was getting about 38 - 40 psi on the low pressure side and i think tim said the correct range was 21 - 28psi?

    i might have a faulty gauge ? but it's working well for now but if anyone has feedback please let me know

    here's a photo while charging: the gauge has several color coded ranges for R134A, R12 etc

    *also has a highlighted optimal area or 65 - 80psi?

    Name:  gauge.jpg
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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    Fantastic!
    I had another set back with compressor turning off due to low pressure. This I thought was solved with a new compressor. It did least get almost 2 weeks this time but far from being over. Getting under I noticed at the end of the low pressure valve a drip, kind of yellow/orange oil. Looks like it ran down the low pressure tube out of the front evaporator.
    I think I must have told this guy 40 times "did you check the evaporator?" He always comes back saying no leaks. So where the hell is this oil coming from? And I had some oil residue on my dash right in front of my far right hand air output. Hello!!! What is this?

    This air thing is killing me. At the rate I am going I am lucky to get air by the time fall comes. It is hotter than hell here in Florida!!!

    Great News on the RedTek. Even when it was running for a week the output was poor. If at night or early morning it kind of worked full up. During the day it did nothing. So once I stop all these leaks I will do the RedTek.

    Great input

    MT

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    Re: low side PSI? Charging Air Conditioning System

    Quote Originally Posted by PNW vanwagon View Post
    just topped off with redtek. after 1.5 - 2 years AC had gone from cold to slightly cool air. added one can and it's blowing cold again.

    one question: while charging i was getting about 38 - 40 psi on the low pressure side and i think tim said the correct range was 21 - 28psi?

    i might have a faulty gauge ? but it's working well for now but if anyone has feedback please let me know

    here's a photo while charging: the gauge has several color coded ranges for R134A, R12 etc

    *also has a highlighted optimal area or 65 - 80psi?

    Name:  gauge.jpg
Views: 911
Size:  38.9 KB
    The specs quoted in my earlier post were from the Toyota Factory Service Manual and is for R-12 Freon. Anything other than R-12 will likely have different pressure specs. You will need to refer to the specs of the specific product you are using (if other than R-12). I personally have only used R-12 in the van, so I am unable to comment as to what pressures you should see. It's good that it blows cold, so congrats on that. I'd be more worried about stress on the system (over time) if pressures are excessive. Tim

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    Re: low side PSI? Charging Air Conditioning System

    Quote Originally Posted by timsrv View Post
    The specs quoted in my earlier post were from the Toyota Factory Service Manual and is for R-12 Freon. Anything other than R-12 will likely have different pressure specs. You will need to refer to the specs of the specific product you are using (if other than R-12). I personally have only used R-12 in the van, so I am unable to comment as to what pressures you should see. It's good that it blows cold, so congrats on that. I'd be more worried about stress on the system (over time) if pressures are excessive. Tim
    yep i've been researching this some more - it's tricky using redtek and similar products as it's kind of in between the properties of r12 and r134a. i did find a chart for r134a calling for low side pressure to be 35 - 40 psi) but i'm not sure if redtek should be following the exact same numbers. the toyota manual says 28 max so i'll prob try and get the low side pressure down close to 28 and see how things go from there.

    Name:  r134a.jpg
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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    PNW - This is what RT has to say on the matter
    AEROSOL CHARGING PROCEDURE
    Follow all RED TEKŪ 12a safety precautions before initiating charging process.
    1) Before installing can taper (stock# 508) or Installation Kit (stock# 502) make sure valve is fully turned counter clockwise. Thread the can tap assembly on to the RED TEKŪ 12a can (stock# 301).
    2) Locate Low Side Service Port and connect hydraulic coupler by pushing onto male service port making sure hydraulic coupler is fully secured.
    3) Start the engine and place the A/C on maximum setting.
    4) Turn can tap valve clockwise into the can piercing the can seal.
    5) Invert the can. (Turn upside down). Make sure can is inverted through entire charging process.
    6) Slowly turn can tap valve counter clockwise allowing refrigerant to flow slowly into system.
    7) Continue with charging process as determined by the RED TEKŪ 12a conversion chart and adequate cooling is attained. Low pressure gauge should read between 30 and 38 psi. DO NOT OVERCHARGE! EXCEEDING 60 PSI ON LOW SIDE CAN DAMAGE COMPRESSOR!
    8) After RED TEKŪ 12a charging procedure is completed, turn can tap valve clockwise until valve is fully closed.
    9) Remove hydraulic couplers and charging hoses from low and high side service ports. Do not remove can tap if there is remaining RED TEKŪ12a inside can. Store unused RED TEKŪ 12a refrigerant in a well ventilated place away from open flames.
    10) Apply RED TEKŪ refrigerant identification tags in a highly visible area near charging port.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MT - Sorry to hear about all the grief, that truly sucks large, hopefully you get it sorted soon.

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    Re: Charging Air Conditioning System

    ^ thanks burntboot ! i did see that info on redteks website. wonder if that upper end of 30 - 38 psi range is too much pressure on our vans compressor. also saw some VW vans use redtek and they found 30 psi to be the sweet spot. i'll experiment and see what works best. if it blows plenty cold at 30 psi - i'll go with that

  21. 09-25-2018, 02:25 AM


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