replacing engine, different year 4Ys, need help

[djshimon]

My 1987 4x4 van has 234,000 miles and is leaking oil, burning oil, leaking from a cracked exhaust manifold and so i'm replacing it with a lower mileage engine instead of redoing the whole thing. so my questions' :

I can't find how to disconnect the tranny from the motor?
The manual says to lower them both out the bottom together which i will do but i wanted to leave the tranny alone and take the motor up and out.
maybe i'll just start taking one thing off at a time(and labeling) until there's nothing left.
i'm going to replace the hose of death while i have the neused motor out and what else should i replace? motor mounts? water pump will be replaced too.
does anyone in the portland area have an engine hoist i could borrow for a month(that's quite a while isn't it)?
thanks everybody, aaron.

[timsrv]

I'll be doing this job myself soon on the same van as yours (5 speed 4wd). I've got the van and the engine but currently lack the time. I'm getting caught up though so it should happen in a few more weeks. I'll document it and post to the forum. Of course this doesn't help you much right now (sorry).

The thing to remember when separating or attaching engines and transmissions is to keep things lined-up. That means the two must slide straight (if there's side pressure it will create problems). Get all the other stuff removed (wire harnesses, hoses, motor mounts, exhaust, cables, etc) and save the bell housing bolts for last. When everything else is disconnected, take out all the bell housing bolts and put a jack under the front of the transmission (use a chunk of 2x4 or something similar between the jack and the transmission). You will need to lift the engine a bit to get it to slide forward, so put some pressure on the jack to keep the weight of the tranny from creating a bind. Make sure you got all the bell housing bolts! You may need to find a pry point between the two to get the separation started, but don't pry too hard. If the two don't start separating then you forgot a bolt.........STOP & RECHECK! When the crack starts to open between the engine and transmission, monitor to be sure that crack stays uniform. If the crack gets smaller or larger in one place use the jack and/or reposition the engine to keep it uniform. You'll want to wriggle and jiggle things a bit side to side and up and down along with the forward motion. When you get the correct alignment going things should just slip apart. The clutch and pressure plate will come out attached to the engine flywheel and may create a clearance problem, but I think you should be able to tweak things around enough to disengage the two.

I'm guessing the motor mounts are toast already so you'll probably need to replace those regardless. Here's a thread where I removed the engine from an automatic 4wd van, but I had already removed the transmission before attempting to remove the engine. Have fun and good luck . Tim

[djshimon]

thanks tim that helps with my questions. i'm hoping to do this in the next week or two because of my thirty day warranty on my new/used engine that i'll be getting this week. hopefully i can take some pictures during the process...we'll see.

[djshimon]

Ok so they gave me a 1989 engine with even less miles(supposedly) than I had thought-119k. This is good. But mine is a 1987 and I read on another post(Yotamog swap?) that I need to swap the intake manifold, fuel rail and injectors as one due to the years difference? Is that as easy as it sounds, does it all really come off together? Do i need new gaskets for all these? Mine is a manual and not sure of the donor engine so should everything else swap over just fine? Thanks again good people!
aaron.
Oh and they loaded the new engine into the back of my van- two 4yec engines in one van! It came on a small pallet and they loaded it in with a forklift.

[timsrv]

Was it a Toyota forklift ? If so, did the forklift also have a 4y ? I'm not saying this is the only way, or even the easiest, but I would view the new engine as a long-block hidden under the other junk they left installed. Remove and discard everything on the replacement engine that isn't the same as your old engine, then build it up using the parts off your old one. Things like the outlet nipple to the radiator and the sensors attached to it should be moved over. I'm a little undecided on the intake/exhaust with the fuel rail/injectors. It may be possible to simply remove the Bosch style injector connectors, then splice in the "Inverted Denso" type connectors. This might even be a better way to go??? Then maybe you could leave the 89 stuff on there, but this may or may not lead to other unforeseeable issues???

I typically view this sort of decision as "it's an 87 van, I'm keeping it to 87 standards". I'm not saying it's not an option to go with 89 stuff, I'm just saying it keeps the van more original and less confusing to work on for future mechanics. Although I sort of doubt it, there may also be compatibility issues between the 89 injectors and the 87 ECU. In order to rule that out you would need to compare resistance and flow rates of 89 & 87 injectors. Due to these type questions, I would just recommend keeping your 87 van all 87..........at least in the department of obvious & known changes between the years.

If you do decide to swap the 87 parts into the 89 block, you will need to split the intake manifolds and remove these items from both engines. The lower intake manifold along with the injectors/fuel rail can be removed as an assembly (no need to disassemble these parts). You will need a new intake/exhaust gasket along with the gasket between intake manifold halves. The exhaust manifolds are the same, so go with the best one. You may need to swap the o2 sensor with a cover plate, but that stuff is pretty self explanatory. If you can, please take some pics and keep us informed of your progress. Tim

PS: I'm assuming the 89 engine came out of an automatic van, if that's the case, don't forget to install a new pilot bearing into the crank before putting your clutch parts on. Tim

[djshimon]

Thanks Tim for the quick response!
I was so excited to get my engine that I didn't even notice if it was a toyota forklift or not, but I'd put my bets on it, if it was the Preakness and they had a horse named Toyota.
That info helps immensely. I'm not sure if it was an automatic or not so I guess I'll have to err on the side of yes and put in a new pilot bearing-i've never changed a clutch, except on my motorcycles so this oughtta be a lesson.
And i'll definitely take pictures because otherwise I may be really lost.
Thanks again,
-aaron.

[llamavan]

What Tim said, in spades — keep all the '87 stuff. That's what your ECU expects to "find". There's all kinds of sensor differences between pre-'88 and '88/'89 or just '89, and you'll find even more if the "new" ('89) engine came out of an LE.

Heads up — '88-'89 exhaust manifold is different, too (because Toyota went to dual O2 sensors in '88). The '88-'89 manifolds use a blank to cover the original O2 port; just remove it and insert the single O2 sensor for the pre-'88 vans.

Gwen

[timsrv]

Just to help avoid confusion, all van exhaust manifolds are the same from 84-89. The only differences is the later ones don't use the o2 sensor port (o2 sensor is mounted on the down pipe). The manifold is still the same, there's just a metal plate installed over the o2 port in place of the o2 sensor. Swapping plates/sensors around is just as easy as replacing an o2 sensor.........only easier in your case because the manifold will be out and you'll have easy access. Whichever one you decide to use, just stick with the original o2/plate configuration and you'll be fine. Tim

[timsrv]

I'm not sure if it was an automatic or not so I guess I'll have to err on the side of yes and put in a new pilot bearing-i've never changed a clutch, except on my motorcycles so this oughtta be a lesson............

It's all pretty easy stuff, but if it's not done right it can create big problems when trying to mate the engine with the transmission. Just look at the back of the engine to see if there's a bearing pressed into the hole on the center of the crank. If there's not one, then pick one up and put it in there before putting the clutch parts on. I use a bearing driver and a hammer, but you can use any number of things as a substitute. Just try to focus the pounding force to the outside race of the bearing. Stop when it's flush with the outside edge of the crank.

When installing the clutch disc and pressure plate, a clutch alignment tool is nice to have. There are many different ones (specific to vehicle), but most auto parts stores have a good selection. Over the years I've collected most of the different ones, but once in a while I'll find myself in a jam without the correct tool. When that happens l usually just make one using a piece of wood dowel or something similar and wrap it with tape. The whole idea of the alignment tool is to hold the clutch disc centered to the flywheel while installing the pressure plate. If you end up with the disc misaligned, then the transmission input shaft won't want to slide into place during transmission installation.

Check your clutch parts closely when doing the swap. If you see anything questionable, replace now. Clutch parts are cheap compared to the labor (and frustration) required to do it after everything has been put back together. IMHO, it's better to replace all this stuff while it's apart regardless....... unless it's got less than 40k miles on it since it was replaced last. Replacement should consist of having your flywheel surface ground, replacing the disc, pressure plate, pilot bearing and throw-out bearing. Things like slave cylinder are optional as those are external and can be replaced afterwards without too much trouble if required. Tim

[djshimon]

Thanks Llama and Tim.
what do you think of non-oem clutch parts and water pump? probably not as big a deal as the oem-thermostat i'm thinking. and could there be a difference in manifold gaskets between '87 and '89?
this is going to be a lot of work but i think i'll get through it, in time. it sure is nice to know you folks are out there with your help, like mechanic angels looking over my shoulder.

thanks, aaron

[timsrv]

Non OEM water pump should be fine. I purchased several water pumps from www.rockauto.com on one of their famous "close-out" sales for $12 each. I compared these to the genuine Toyota pump I had in stock and could find no differences in them. Even the casting stamps in the bodies of the pumps are all identical. The only difference I could see was the A-1 Cardone pump was beat up a bit like it had gone through a rock tumbler.........and the mounting surface was a bit rough. The Beck Arnley pumps look exactly like the genuine Toyota pump in every way..........right down to the fresh machined mounting surface. I suspect A-1 Cardone is rebuilt but the Beck Arnleys are actually new surplus genuine Toyota. Of course when it comes to aftermarket, things can change at any time. These guys tend to purchase products from different sources, then repack and resell. I've even had batches of parts (all of the same part number & ordered at the same time) show up different. Interchangeable? Yes, but different size and shape of boxes, different manufacturers of the parts inside, different appearance, some with hardware, some without, some new, some rebuilt, etc).

When it comes to gasket material and friction surfaces, I prefer genuine Toyota. I'm not saying there's not good aftermarket stuff out there, I'm just saying I know Toyota has spent millions of dollars in researching the best possible materials to use in these locations............and they know their equipment better than anybody else. Because these are critical areas, and Toyota prices are affordable, I don't take chances here. If you stick with genuine Toyota you can't go wrong, so I consider their somewhat inflated prices money well spent.

Last time I priced Toyota clutch parts they were actually pretty reasonable. If you decide to go aftermarket, go with a reputable manufacturer. If you have any doubts, you could at least purchase the clutch disc from Toyota and get the other parts elsewhere.

As for gaskets, all 4y gaskets are interchangeable 86-89. Tim

[djshimon]

more great information, thank you! now i just need to get started...i'll need time for that.

[Sam Humans]

This is a fantastic thread, so much good info! Aaron, if you get some pictures up the entire Toyota Van community will thank you for years to come. Also, I'm in pdx and though I don't have a ton of free time as I've got a 2 year old runnin' around, if you need a hand some weekday afternoon (I work weekends) I'd be more than willing.

Good luck!
-Sam

[djshimon]

Sam, I work sunday, monday, tuesday, and also have a small child(a 1 and a 1/2 month old love of my life) and my lady who is in nursing school so I've been squeeking in an hour or two at a time on my van. I may be able to use your help-i'm in portland too-but my timing is usually sporadic. So far i've taken out the seats, access panel, radiator, a/c compressor, steering pump hose, air hose, and disconnected the ecm. I tried to take pictures as I went but started to forget when I would get frustrated(radiator had a couple hard to reach spots until I jacked up the van for more access). There are many threads on this site and tvp that helped me, especially with the access panel and it's connecting shifter lines. Here's some pictures unless they're too big and don't show up: The first one is before removing the access panel and those clips come up and off and the rubber grommets go through the hole and the lines slide through the access panel.the second picture is after i've removed the panel and the three cables(shifters for hi/lo, 5speed) are at the bottom of the pic. I left the e-brake cable attached and flipped the access panel and put it over the "Hump".
I'll try and take more pictures now that I've posted some and it was really easy. Unless I'm taking up too much space on this site and then hopefully they'll tell me. Next thing to do is release the downpipe/exhaust from the engine, remove every single electrical connector, then remove the tranny from engine and hoist away! I hope.

[djshimon]

So I couldn't see the pictures in my last post until I logged on-go figure.
I think I'm about ready to remove the old engine, only thing holding it in place is the tranny and motor mounts, I think.
Last week I disconnected the downpipe from the muffler pipe. Yesterday I disconnected about 23 electrical connections and labeled every one of them with blue tape and sharpie(I don't have a photographic memory), here's a pic. Today I disconnected the clutch "slave" cylinder, fuel hose into the filter and fuel return line- all three lost fluid and I plugged them with some caps from the auto store just about the time they stopped pouring out fluid. Also unplugged the o2 sensor today.
Now I need to get to work on the new motor, replacing hoses(of death!) and water pump and a few more to be determined.
I still have a question about the '89 engine and it's having two o2 sensors(i'm feeling a bit dense, sorry) So if it's an '89 it should have a second o2 sensor on the exhaust manifold here? So if it doesn't(and it doesn't) then maybe not an '89? Does anyone know how to find the year of the engine based on the engine stamp? I'm definately doing a leak down test on this engine before installing.
Thanks for all your help.

[llamavan]

The '88 and '89 vans have two O2 sensors. One, with a four-wire connector, is on the exhaust PIPE (not the manifold) before the cat. The second is after the cat somewhere (haven't had to replace it yet ...). The pre-'88 vans have a single, one-wire O2 sensor that is mounted in a port on the exhaust manifold.

In your case:

• If you will re-use your original exhaust manifold, don't worry about the O2 sensor (just disconnect and reconnect the sensor wiring).

• If you will use the exhaust manifold from the '89 engine, remove the cover on the exhaust manifold port (exactly where the O2 sensor goes on your original manifold) and install a new (pre-88, single wire) O2 sensor in the port exactly the way it is on your original van engine.

Very easy. But puzzling if you later find the single-wire connector and there's no place to put it!

Gwen

[djshimon]

Ok. Thanks Gwen, I think I might have gotten it this time.
-aaron

[djshimon]

So I took the motor out a few weeks ago and that wasn't the worst thing i've ever done(Pic 1). I may have busted a couple sensors and hoses in the process but that is normal, isn't it?

Now I am taking off the manifolds on the older motor and although TimsRV said just swap the injectors as a whole, I started removing the electrical connectors(oops-i meant to listen) and three of them broke on one tiny corner in the process. They still connect but are a bit loose and the metal clasp/holder touches the injector-so do I replace them or just let 'em move around a little bit(Pic 2)?

None of the exhaust manifold bolts were broken, wow, even with at least 2 cracks in the exhaust manifold. The crack on the right exhaust port with the red arrow goes all the way around the pipe and is about to fall off(Pic 3)-that thing is toast! From reading the other manifold replacement threads I think I will replace the old manifold bolts while it's so accessible.

Now here's a tribute to the Toyota gaskets and why you must always buy Toyota(Pic 4)-The original Intake/Exhaust gasket was in good condition when I pulled it off. Look how dirty that motor is!

Next thing I need to do is order all the gaskets, and some hoses, and remove and replace clutch parts. I'm starting to wish i'd just gone with the straight engine swap(from an '86/'87), or even rebuilt the engine. This is a big job and i'm not even sure of the actual miles or health of the newer engine- it could be trouble once I get it back together. It does look much cleaner and the exhaust manifold looks solid, so maybe it is better?

[Qasual]

Get the new gasket while you can, crush gaskets are usually one time use only.

[timsrv]

Too bad your connectors got messed up. I wouldn't recommend running with messed up injector connectors.................especially the rear ones (it would suck having to split your intake manifold later just to push a loose connector back on). If you end up using Bosch injectors those connectors are easy to find at salvage yards. Many makes and models of vehicles used those connectors in the 80s, so finding should be easy. If you use the inverted Denso injectors then they will be harder to find. To my knowledge, those were only used on the vans and on some Suburu models in the 80s and 90s. Due to high engine compartment temps, I would avoid taking these type parts off a van. They hold up well on other models though so used should be fine. When you splice these onto your existing wire harness you should solder and shrink tube. Butt connectors might work but IMO they are not suitable for long term use in this location. Tim