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Thread: Refreshing the engine (rebuild and aftermath)

  1. #81
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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Tim - Thanks for the education on lifters. My experiences are over 30 yrs out of date and back then I tended to do as instructed.
    Always nice to learn proper ways, even if a "little" late.

    This whole thing doesn't make any sense, it would seem to be that everything measures within spec, everything that should be a problem has been replaced and yet the noise still persists. After rereading the entire saga, trying to make sense of just what the heck is going on, I find myself coming back to post #22 and #35

    "Got it fired up finally. Ran like crap making an awful noise from the head. Sounded like a generator was running under the seat. Limped it home about 15 miles and let it sit over night. Fired it up the next morning and it ran as smooth and quite as could be. No idea what happened but it hasn't made noises in the last 40 miles I've put on it. Going to order an oil pressure and water temperature gauges just to keep an eye on things but, fingers crossed its good to go."

    "Lifters came out easy. I got 8 new Meller lifters from autozone and put them in today. The toyota van fsm said to soak them in diesel fuel before installation but I just primed them in a cup of oil before hand."

    My first thought was they installed a reground cam and if it wasn't re-hardened, that might explain the 40 miles of quietude but if that were the case, the lift would be way out of spec (wiped out lobes).
    Then I decided that it must be those A/M lifters causing an issue, but the issue was present before installing them so that would indicate that the lifters were never a part of the problem, as the likelihood of 2 different sets causing the exact same issue is
    longer odds than winning the lottery.

    I know the vid sure sounds like valve train noise but is there any chance the noise is coming from elsewhere?? did you verify source(s) with a stethoscope?
    Maybe timing chain slapping the case or even the distributor not properly seated? Is there lots of oil at the rockers when you pull the Valve Cover?
    Something has to be seriously messed up to cause that much noise.

    I once had a bad bottom end knock going on at #4, thought for sure I was in for a new bottom end.
    Then the clutch started slipping and as I needed the ride but didn't have time for engine R&R, I tossed in a fresh disc & PP.
    I did find springs in the bottom of bell housing on disassembly, and once all back together, my "rod" knock disappeared too.
    Shocked the heck out of me, but just goes to show, sometimes, noises can travel and send one down the wrong rabbit hole.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    And just for moment I wanted to question that head from China, maybe not machined to exactly the correct height or ???
    Then again, IIRC, noise was present prior to head replacement.

    Out of curiosity, how did it run before the engine was rebuilt?

    Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burntboot View Post
    Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.
    And that's where I am. I get interested in things like this and can usually get to the bottom of these issues pretty quick. Unfortunately It's not here for me to play with, so all I can do is speculate. And like you said, sounds can transmit from other locations, so I don't have a lot of faith in my gut. But based on that noise in the video, it's the only thing that can think of. Bottom line? Somebody needs to start ruling things out. Checking lash isn't all that difficult, so I'd recommend checking that 1st (because it sure sounds like valve train noise to me).

    Speaking of hard to diagnose sounds, I've had similar experiences. I was chasing a noise once that I was sure had to be a wrist pin, but ended up being a defect inside the alternator. I figured that out only after running it without belts. Another time I found a loose torque converter that was rattling and it sounded like a rod knock. At this point it all boils down to process of elimination. Check the easy stuff 1st and work your way down to the more difficult things. Tim

    PS: I could be wrong on some points I made regarding lifters, but this is the way I understand things. Regarding pre-pumping, I used to always pre-pump SB Chev lifters as those rockers are adjustable. We'd start the engine with all the valves a little loose, back off the rocker nut until it made a racket, slowly tighten just until the racket stopped, then tighten an additional 3/4 turn. This would put the piston part of the lifter near the middle of it's range.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Burnboot, this issue has been here since the motor was installed after the rebuild.

    I also noticed the cylinder closest to the front of the van had some oil on it, may explain my misfire. I don't think the spark plug tube rings ever get replaced so I ordered a set to see if that fixes it.

    Tim, its almost as if the lifters are not getting "pumped up". When they are at the base of the came they are all squishy feeling. If I am reading your response right then that shouldn't happen? Here is a video I took when I was first delving into this issue last year. It's like the lifters aren't getting oil at all.

    Last edited by terrence; 11-04-2017 at 08:10 PM.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Okay, so that's really weird. I don't recall seeing that video before so I went back and sure enough there it was on page 2 (somehow I missed it before now) .

    I couldn't recall seeing lifter pistons so easily compressed so I grabbed some new ones and tried to compress them. The Federal Mogul brand I have are rock solid and will not compress unless extreme pressure is applied. I also have some new Engine Tech brand so I checked those and found they are easy to push and will spring right back (consistent with your video). So, my conclusion is lifters vary (a lot) from brand to brand. That being said I'd have to assume the play you're experiencing is normal for that brand (at least when new & dry -but- once they are full of oil they should be much more solid). If the van was previously running, even if you are able to manually compress, oil should be coming out the rocker arm (at least the 1st couple times you push after engine shut-off).

    So this makes me think you may be correct suspecting an oiling problem........perhaps a blocked oil passage somewhere??? If you can't verify oil comes out when manually compressing, then I'd start the engine with the valve cover off. If the lifters are getting oil your rockers will spray oil like crazy (like enough to empty your engine of oil in minutes). So, before you do that, rig up some sort of shield and take precautions to minimize the mess. When you start the engine oil should start spraying out of all the rockers almost immediately. It will likely be extremely messy, so only run it long enough to verify oil comes out of all rockers.........especially the ones that were easy to push. If there are any that don't spray oil, then I'm thinking it's an oil starvation issue.

    I'm assuming the engine has oil pressure and you've previously verified that............right? If not check that 1st. Tim

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    I seriously think it spun a cam bearing. I mentioned this a while back after watching this video the first time it was posted. My dad bought a used Ford Bronco II with a solid lifter 2.8 V6 that had valve noise due to heavily warn lash adjusters. The dealer said they would pay to have them replaced. We replaced the adjusters at the shop I worked at as a teenager only to have them wear again pretty quickly. After running it with a valve cover off it was quickly obvious that oil was not flowing to those valves and after consulting a lubrication diagram figured out that those valves were all connected to the same cam bearing. Oil was getting to the cam but the oil hole in the bearing wasn't aligned with the oil gallery in the block cutting off the flow to some of the valves. I would definitely agree with Tim on starting it with the valve cover off but I would think you should be able to produce enough pressure to check this flow just by cranking it with the ignition disabled. Maybe a little less messy that way.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    I just reread the post just after you got it home and the sound miraculously went away but then came back. Maybe there is some debris clogging the oil gallery that moved at some point. If you confirm no oil flow to those lifters, maybe you could remove them and crank the engine to pump oil through and try to flush it out while the lifter isn't in the bore covering the oil port.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    If you verify there's oil pressure, but no flow through some (or all) of the lifters/rockers, let me know and I'll dig a 4y block out (I have a bare 4y block buried in storage) and I'll map the path oil flows for you. Armed with this information you'll know where to look. I agree with Original that something like a spun or misaligned cam bearing could be to blame. Could also be a piece of debris stuck in a passage hole somewhere.........Tim

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Wow, what a story. Terrence has really done such a great job documenting all of this not to even mention his persistence, Kudos to you for sure. With my recently purchased 86LE having a knocking sound when cold forced me to read this entire thread. Clearly not a chatter noise like Terrence but more of a nasty knock but goes away after she warms up. 268K on the engine.

    I guess my question would be, after reading this entire thread, does anyone think that maybe purchasing a new engine would have had better results? I found a couple of fork lift engine firms here that sell 4Y's long block. If they are the same engine as ours maybe?????

    https://store.intellaliftparts.com/p...030-23340.html
    and here:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/4Y-NEW-Fork...4383.l4275.c10

    Just thinking out loud. Man, I am tired for Terrence just reading all of this. This guy has stamina. Need a job??? How I would love to hire guys like you.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    MT - Fork lift engines are the same (4Y) but the internals are different. That and fork lift parts are more expensive.
    There are no "new" engines. Toyota hasn't had a long block in stock for over 10yrs
    The only options out there are rebuilt engines. Like all things, a rebuild is only as good as the sourced parts and labour that goes into it.
    If you sell rebuilt engines for a living, would you be installing the best parts money can buy or the cheapest part the will work?
    Unless you have someone you trust to do the rebuild, your best best is to do it yourself.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Terrance - any updates on this issue? would love to hear you finally solved it.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Thanks Burntboot:

    Now that I did not know about fork lift engines having different inners.

    Would you have any suggestions as to who you would recommend for a rebuilt 4Y?

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Problem still persists. Last time I went to work on it the ECU wasn't getting power again. One of the relays comes loose every now and then and just needs to be fiddle with. So I haven't started the van to see if oil is pumping in the head yet. I picked up a 98' dodge mini van for dirt cheap and have been working on it in the mean time. I kinda sunk a bit when I transferred the insurance over to it from the Toyota van. It has been really cold in around here lately and I am just waiting for a warmer day to mess with it again. It is looking like I am going to have to pull the cam to inspect bearings though, so I have just been putting it off.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    My my my, what a pity. Chapel Hill huh, hmmmmm. Man if I had some spare time I would fly up to check this out with you. But even here in Florida it is so cold I am not sure the Lycoming engine in the plane would even turn with oil like molasses anyway.

    So the beat goes on in search for best place for rebuilt 4Y engines. I did find these guys last night. Would like to here from Burntboot on this.

    http://remanns.com

    As for my knock exhausted my efforts to find any more on this on TVT. I will start a new post on this if anyone has any input.

    Stay warm everyone!

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    MT - A heavy knock when cold that disappears as it warm is usually caused by piston slap.
    Piston slap can occur for a very long time with no apparent repercussions, then again it can also break piston skirts when really bad.
    Before declaring it terminal it wouldn't hurt to do an engine flush, it may not help at all but its worth trying as it is one of the cheapest things once can do.
    Also pay attention to the oil and filter your using, synthetic is great stuff but on an old engine with noises I would use a quality Dino oil.
    As crazy as it sounds, I also use OEM filters, for the very reason that I have had issues with AM stuff even the supposedly high end stuff.

    On my Suzuki, I picked up some A/M filters dirt cheap (good name, good rep)
    First one went on and I immediately had issues with the timing chain tensioners bleeding down.
    I swapped out the filter for OEM and all the noises went away and then I threw out the 3 other cheapie's.
    Sometimes I have to relearn lessons, but is usually sticks the 3rd or 4th time around

    As far as reman places, I have no idea.
    Murphy was a close relative and I seem to have inherited his genes.
    Every time I get a remained part I have issues, so I have gotten into the habit of doing everything myself or going new.

    As far as what parts to use, I am a fan of factory stuff as it is brainless (right stuff that fits everytime)
    If availability/cost is a factor then research Tim's blog where he details a 4Y rebuild, the parts he used and the problems he ran into.
    Sadly, there is no "easy" solution.

    If you are going to go with a rebuilder, ask around and talk to everyone you know (in person, preferably) and find out their experiences.
    And if you have no friends to ask, try going where the gear heads get together for coffee.
    Most people will be more than willing to share experiences, once you get some recommendations, go to those shops, meet the owners/staff and get a feel for them.
    If you want to spend serious coin and the owner isn't willing to give a shop tour, thats a red flag for me.
    Insurance regulations are always cited, but a shop that does good work and is proud of their product is going to be happy to show you why your money is best spent at their establishment.
    Don't be intimidated but do be friendly. And when you do find the right shop, treat them well.
    What I mean is, if your dropping by to check on progress, take enough coffee for the staff, maybe some donuts or cookies too.
    You will be amazed at the dividends those little courtesies can provide.

    Generally speaking an engine is an engine and a competent rebuilder will be able to work on anything.
    Most of the problems occur when time is the driving factor, thats why doing it yourself can yield a better end product.
    By doing it yourself you will take the time to do everything right even if it means wasting an hour or 2, the rebuilder won't.
    I have seen newly rebuilt engines with broken rings, rings misaligned, wrong gaskets, ... the list is endless.
    He's not going to chase threads, use never seize where appropriate, replace incidentals while its easy (like that little hose under the intake...)
    Thats not saying you can't get a quality rebuild, I just have no idea where to find one.

    The only suggestion I can make is don't price shop your rebuild.
    If the going rate is $3000 and you find one for $2000 you gotta ask yourself where they are saving the money.
    They only care that it lasts as long as the warranty and even if there is a problem, they will start with blaming the installer, thats just the way it goes.
    Saving a thou is useless if you end up with more problems than you started with.
    And you don't want something that will last for 1-2 yrs, you're likely wanting something that will last another 300K

    All these potential issues are why many people go with JDM engines, they are a good option if you can find one, but they are getting harder to find.
    Importers are in business, they bring in what sells and there isn't a lot of demand for 4Y's any more.
    BB

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    And the other thing to consider about a cold engine knock, don't overlook the possibility of a cracked exhaust manifold.
    The don't always exhibit as an exhaust leak, sometimes they will present as a loud knock that goes away as it warms (manifold expands and crack closes)
    It is NOT an uncommon problem on TV's, so very much worth investigating.
    BB

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Thanks BB:


    This van sat in a barn for 20 years. The previous owner is pretty sharp. Before storage he drained all the gas out, ran the system dry then with a tad of lubricant. He topped the oil, meat ball, and transmission. Then every 3 to 4 months he would move the van back and forth about 50 feet to keep thinks wet. Cranked motor with starter.
    Fuel pump, filter, starter, alternator, water pump, and radiator replaced after taking it out of moth balls.

    When he took it out she started right up with no issues. Not sure if the knock was there before or when he took it out. I can ask. We have a running dialogue as I make the van ready for every day use.

    He had a head gasket failure about 120K ago so in doing that he also replaced the rings and bearings.

    He was a fanatic about maintenance. So much so that he installed a Hobbs meter so he could track time and milage for Oil changes.

    He also used special hydraulic fluids for all the brakes similar to 5150 we use in airplane.

    I think the van needs motor mounts now since it vibrates a lot when kicked into reverse when cold. He told me they were original.

    As for rebuilding, I don't have the luxury of time to do it. I would love to but owning 3 corporations does not give that space.

    I bought two of these when they were new in 1986 and 1988. They were both the best driving machine I ever had and I have had a bunch. But the vans were part of my company and when I sold they went with it. So I know the potential of the vehicle and that is why I want to get it back.

    I don't have a problem sinking some dollars into a good rebuild. I thought I was doing better thinking that I could buy new from the fork lift guys but you put an end to that wish.

    I am not sure if flushing would help since the past owner was so annal. He always used Castrol 10/30 all these years and replaced it all again before we shipped it to Florida.

    So I thought of going Mobil 1 but you say I should look at Dino. What is that? Sorry, not in my word lib yet.

    Thanks so much for you insight. I will no doubt replaced the motor one day for sure. I budgeted for that. Just reading Terrance's thread made me realize I should study this a great deal.

    Thank you so much
    MyToy

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Given that info, I think you need to diagnose your actual problem before you jump to a conclusion about the engine's integrity.

    A stethoscope is an indispensable and cheap tool for diagnosing noises.
    Once you figure out where the noise is the loudest, you can formulate an appropriate attack plan.

    Here's hoping its just the exhaust manifold, you'd be amazed at how much they can sound like an internal engine knock.
    BB

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    I'd be suspecting the rebuilder used tones of cheap hylomar or other instant gasket in the place of factory seals. I've taken a fair few engines apart after "rebuilds" and found tonnes of sealant clogging up oil ways and filters. have you pulled the sump and found any evidence of this? it would explain the huge valve clearance. even with an incorrect cam profile, pushrod length or bent rocker you should still have an acceptable clearance if the lifters are getting oil pressure. it just will result in less lift! I can only think it's an oil pressure issue at the lifters.

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    Re: Refreshing the motor of my 87' van.

    Thanks BB

    I will try to get some further diagnostics complete before she goes into the paint shop for her face lift this week.

    Along with the stethoscope I will also use Tim's tool of pulling the spark plugs to see if one cylinder responds to that.

    As for the exhaust manifold leak, I am not sure except to just pull it, although I may be able to hear it with the stethoscope.
    My IA has one and has a lot of experience with it. I will give him a call today and ask him. Will keep you posted.

    MT

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