Christmas dash (dash lights stay on; dash lights come on while driving)

[filterway]

Hi all,

i just bought a 1988 Toyota van today and i'm very proud to own that car! 438 000km or 273 500 miles. i'm the second owner

Of course there is some problem i have to solve and i hope this forum will help me.

first, sometime, while i'm on the road, all the warning lights in the dash are blinking, especially when the road is rough.. I think it's a bad ground (rust).
did someone had this problem? the last owner think it have link with alternator and diodes. What do you think? in my opinion it look like a bad ground contact.

secondo, i have a play with the steering while i'm driving, especially at low speed. there is a specific part to change (common problem)?

thanks for your help. Now i have to go, i have to write in an excel sheet the last 24 years of maintenance of the van

cheers!

[Burntboot]

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your recent acquisition.

As to the dash lights, that issue is commonly referred to as "christmas lights" do a search on the forum for the "fusible link" thread.
All your answers are awaiting you there.

As far as the steering goes, there are lots of things that can produce excessive play in the fr end, especially on the 4wd models.
Best check it out properly (or have someone you trust look at it for you).
BB

[filterway]

thank you burntboot,

i noticed a specific detail about my christmas dash light problem, is it's occurs at 60 mph and above... someone had the same symptom?

thank again!

[JFratzke]

It's the first thing we all had to fix on our old vans....check the fusible link articles....they are well written and easy to decipher. I believe there are at least 2 maybe even 3 that you need to replace with fuses or fusible link available at any auto parts store. My old van (Scooby) did the Christmas tree thing at high speeds on and on rough roads before I replaced links 1 and 2. They are in the battery compartment. Probably the easist issue to fix that you'll ever run accross on your van

[bigeo]

An alternator heading south can also cause the xmas lights. Replacing mine fixed the issue.

[filterway]

after i cleaned fusible link no.3 and checked no1 and 2 (looks fine), my problem is still there. Have you replaced fusible link 1 and 2 with common fuseholder? if yes, which amp fuse did you used for each one?

if i understand well how fusible link works, current flows thru them with no resistance and if the fusible link have problem, resistance will increase (checking with a voltmeter) is it ok?

but now i'm confused because i've just talked few minutes ago with the last owner of the van and he told me he changed the alternator 4 years ago due to christmas light problem, then 6 month after the christmas light come again. I asked him if the power steering pump has been changed or seals changed, he said no. For me it sounds like a leaking power steering pump on the alternator.

My question is: how to check fusible links and be sure they are fine before go further with power steering/alternator investigation?

[timsrv]

Visual inspection of the fusible links is usually adequate. Just make sure they are clean, free of corrosion, and no burns. In my experience, intermittent "christmas dash" has usually been caused by power steering fluid fowling up the brushes inside the alternator.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...lternator-woes

[filterway]

ok. i think my fusibles link are good.

There is another test i can do to be sure the problem is the alternator? (checking voltage at the battery? or something else?)

Any suggestions where to buy a good remanufactured power steering pump? I've read changing all seal on the PS pump is not the best alternative because "internal" leak.

on a scale from 0-10, 0 is very easy, 10 is very hard, what is the difficulty to change PS pump and alternator by myself? I have basic mechanic knowledge, i don't have specialized tools.

[inthar]

is the alternator oily on top? or look like its been splattered on by dripping ps fluid? removing pump and alt. are i'd say a 2 1/2 to 3 in difficulty. The book says to use ps belt to tension ps pulley enough to get the pulley nut loose. didn't work for me so I slid up the fan cover up a little and used a makita impact drill with some socket extensions and pulled the belt tight around the pulley and had a friend get the nut off. besides that pretty straight forward.

[filterway]

my alternator is dirty but "dry" i means the mud on it is dry and uniform. last owner puted so much grease againt rust, it could be this stuff on the alternator. I inserted a white clean rag just under the ps pump, starting engine fews minutes while i turned steering full left and full right 2-3 times. Rag was dry, no leak. I don't know if this way i can detect any leak but i loose nothing to try.

i continued this evening with some others test. I have a 12v voltage/alternator reader. i started the engine then tested front cigarette lighter: 13.5-14.4 volts. tested battery, same reading. i took the car on the highway. voltage was fine every time. when christmas light came on, voltage on the reader was normal, about 14.3 volts. nothing changed on the reader while the christmas lights were on.

but i realized to be able to activate the "christmas light" i have to release the gas pedal quickly at high engine revolution, and the christmas lights comes on. i tested the same at speed 1, i go maybe at 5-10 mph then i release the pedal gas quickly then christmas lights are on just the time the car shake a fraction of second. I conclude the christmas lights comes on when engine/transmission are moving, like releasing the gas pedal at hi revolution of the engine. I would like this test confirm me that my alternator have nothing to do with the christmas light problem but have something to do when engine moving..... (like a quick deceleration)

any thoughts about this situation? can i still consider alternator or fusible link the cause of the christmas lights trouble?

[timsrv]

Sounds like brushes to me. This is what mine did when the brushes got fowled up with ATF. If you click on the link in my previous post it shows what I found in my alternator when I had the same problem. The brushes were still making "good enough" contact to keep my battery up but I believe this contact was intermittent. It's the intermittent contact that made the "christmas dash" occur. Eventually, over the course of about 3 or 4 months the dash lights stayed on longer & longer until they stayed on all the time. That's when I pulled the alternator and took that picture "your brushes on ATF". A new set of brushes from Toyota cured the issue. Of course your results may vary (as to cause), but I believe your issue to be inside the alternator or perhaps damaged wires on the alternator harness. At any rate, I think removing, tearing down, and/or replacing the alternator is your next course of action. Tim

[Burntboot]

Tim's advice is right on the money, follow what he says and you wont go wrong.
As to the PS pump. There are lots of reports on questionable rebuilds out there.
Some seem good others not so much.
New are still available but as they are made from unobtainium they are horribly expensive (at least up here).

When you checked your pump for leaks, did you make sure the system was full?

They are NOT hard to overhaul.
I had a couple of spare pumps lying around and ended up making one good one from the pieces of 2 pumps.

The upside is that I KNOW that every soft part has been replaced.
I also polished the vanes and the shaft and made sure everything was "matched" to each other.
(this was only an issue as I was combing various parts from different pumps, because the "good" one had an excessively worn rear bushing)
( I say "good" because it was obviously a "new" rebuild but not knowing the history, I didn't trust it, good thing I didn't)

As for an internal leak, I wouldn't worry too much about that, it would have to be badly worn (and very noisy) for that too happen.
It is likely the people that made those comments didn't make sure that the vanes were able to move smoothly and the sticking caused their
"internal" leak.

I used the OEM o/h kit straight from Toyota, It came with a specially formed seal, I assume its supposed to help deal with the excessive heat.
If you order just the shaft seal, you only get the standard seal so in my mind the kit was worth springing for.
the other advantage of the kit is it contains all the soft parts required.
No worrying about wether the O-rings you found locally will be exactly the right size (close doesn't help here) or be compatible with ATF.
I like to keep repairs as straightforward as possible, the more potential problems you eliminate up front, the more likely you are to have a successful repair.

As to getting the pulley nut off, I have a pair of vice grips that have a chain attachment, worked like a charm for holding the pulley
while I cracked the nut loose, also handy for being able to torque the nut to spec when done.
It is worthwhile wrapping a rag around the pulley as the chain will have a tendency to dig into the pulley and leave little divots, the rag solves that issue.

For what it's worth, my pump was only "seeping" and I didn't pay it much mind, then one day, driving on the highway, the front seal let go.
The only indication (from a drivers perspective) was solid christmas lights, it was only when I stopped and lifted the hood that I found the mess.
If you're actioning your alternator, it would be prudent to deal with the pump at the same time, if only to avoid issues down the road.
BB

[filterway]

Hi all,

thanks for all your thread about the subject. I finally found the problem. It's a bad harness. my mechanic touched the connector on the alternator while the engine is running and suddenly all the lights where on steady. While he played with the harness i told him the status of the lights in the dash until he found the way to play with the connector that eliminates christmas lights.

For now the problem is solved but i will order a new alternator harness, or does anyone know another way to find a connector (cheapest way), like another toyota alternator harness (camry, corolla) in the late 80's? If i could break the cost of buying an entire alternator harness i will do.

i'm happy that my power steering pump is ok and my alternator too ($$$)

[timsrv]

If available, installing a new van alternator harness is the best way to go. Recently I've heard reports the van alternator harness is NLA (No Longer Available), but I haven't personally tried to order one in over a year. I'm guessing a Camry harness or others from the same era are similar but probably don't have the oil level wires included. I would also expect wire lengths to be different............so probably not worth the trouble. If you go with a harness from a "non-van" I would probably get one from a salvage yard then modify as required to fit. At least you would get the round connector & associated wires that go into the back of the alternator. You could always fabricate your own harness like I did (in the linked thread above). The conductors inside the round connector are regular 1/4" spade connectors. The round connector is nice for weatherproofing reasons & it helps minimize confusion of "what wire goes where", but it can be deleted and replaced with standard wire & connectors. Tim

PS: I usually don't put much stock in reports of parts no longer being available. I have found & purchased several new parts from Toyota AFTER being told by others they were NLA (so don't let that discourage you from trying).

[bigeo]

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just hijack this one. My 87 developed the xmas lights and associated symptoms a few years ago which would occur intermittently. This would happen if the van had been driven continuously for a long period (over an hour) and the dash lights would usually flash when there was some additional strain (going up a hill or accelerating to pass) Along with the lights display. there were signs of a momentary power disruption (cruise control kicking out, head lights flickering, etc.) I ignored the issue for a long time, but after aborting a road trip when the symptoms became particularly persistent and we were heading into territory where a breakdown would have been more than inconvenient I decided to deal with it. Although battery charging had never been an issue, I decided to replace the alternator and since then (over a year ago) had not experienced the problem.
Now, on the first long drive after completing some major engine work, something similar is going on. This time, after driving for 3+ hours on the freeway in hot weather (high 90s) the radio stpped playing, cruise control kicked off, the fan started making funny sounds, dash lights dimmed and when I switched the headlights on, the engine had a slight hesitation. No indicator lights of any kind came on when this happened. We were about 30 miles from our destination at this point, so I switched off all accessories, used only the running lights and kept going. As soon as we got off the freeway and slowed down, the dash lights came up to full brightness, the radio worked again, headlights were bright. The next morning the van started fine and in the driving we have done since (all the less than 1/2 hour) there have been no issues. I checked all the fusible links back at the battery box and they all look just fine. I put a meter on the the 1.25b and 2.0l and they don't show high resistance. I cleaned up the contacts on them, replaced the + battery terminal clamp (strap type which was partially cracked), which is about the best I can do in the field with almost no tools. We're heading home today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but thought I would see if anyone has suggestions for possible causes/cures.

[timsrv]

Sounds like a temporary charge system failure. Of course you already know that. The question is what component is acting up. By far the alternator is the most likely. Unless you got a factory Denso rebuild I'd be leaning in that direction. Otherwise, I guess you'll just have to wait for it to act up again in order to troubleshoot. Hopefully it won't happen when you're far from home. Probably a good idea to start carrying a spare alternator around with you until you get to the bottom of this. Tim

[bigeo]

Since a rebuilt alternator fixed (temporarily) the problem before, I suspected it might be the source this time around. A couple of things puzzle me though: Why, when the alt. is temporarily not charging, does the battery not provide the needed juice? The van did continue to run, so, there was power there. Is it just that the batt. cannot put out enough amps for a longer period to supply the ignition and accessories? Second question is why the alt. light doesn't come on if the system is not charging. On the drive home yesterday (Hood River to Seattle) there was only a brief instance of the problem, again after about 3 hours of driving. I guess I'll order an alternator.

[bigeo]

I just checked online for alternators. Rock Auto has 5 choices: Pure Energy, ACDELCO, Beck/Arnley, Denso, Remy (premium reman). Not much difference in price. Is one of these likely to be better than the others? Is the one listed as Denso going to be rebuilt by them? 1st Toyota doesn't seem to offer a complete alternator, only parts. It occurs to me that I may very well have dripped some PS fluid into the alt. during the work I did recently. Should I try changing the brushes?

[timsrv]

The ones listed as Denso #210-0272 or #210-0115 ARE rebuilt by Denso. To my knowledge all the other brands are still Denso's, but they have been rebuilt by other remanufacturers. I've tried several of these brands & have formed the opinion that Denso is the only one that can rebuild these alternators to be somewhat reliable. Since it is their product they understand it the best. I think Denso's rebuilds are as good as their new ones.

Since a rebuilt alternator fixed (temporarily) the problem before, I suspected it might be the source this time around. A couple of things puzzle me though: Why, when the alt. is temporarily not charging, does the battery not provide the needed juice? The van did continue to run, so, there was power there. Is it just that the batt. cannot put out enough amps for a longer period to supply the ignition and accessories? Second question is why the alt. light doesn't come on if the system is not charging. On the drive home yesterday (Hood River to Seattle) there was only a brief instance of the problem, again after about 3 hours of driving. I guess I'll order an alternator.

Too many variables to know for sure, but the electronic ignition on your van needs a minimum amount of voltage to run (somewhere around 10.5V). If your battery becomes discharged........say 70% or so, the voltage may drop too low when other accessories are running. When you turn them off the amperage is reduced allowing the volts to bounce back a bit. So yes, the battery does provide the needed juice, but only while a charge remains. At some point the voltage will drop too low and the van will die.

Usually a charging system problem is accompanied by warning lights. This doesn't always happen though. I've had alternators fail before with no warning. On one occasion the only warning I had was the radio cutting out when I stepped on the brakes (the additional draw of the brake lights caused voltage to drop & the radio to cut out). Fortunately for me the radio required more voltage to play than the van needed to run. This afforded me the luxury of finding a shady place to park and install my spare alternator. I drove my driver's side front wheel up on the curb before shutting it off . Tim

PS: Wouldn't hurt to try brushes 1st. IMHO though it's a good idea to carry a spare alternator around. If you don't already have one, I'd recommend swapping the Denso rebuild in, then fixing you old and carrying that one as a spare. On the plus side, if you get the Denso, it's unlikely you will need the spare..........at least for a long, long time.

[bigeo]

Thanks Tim. Next (virtual) stop, Rock Auto.