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Thread: Wheel noise?

  1. #1
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    Wheel noise?

    Here's some more info, I had a moment at my folks place here (out in the country!) to get the jack out and lift the front wheels for a quick diagnostic.
    Both wheels have the same free play when grabbed at 12 and 6, just a touch, I'm thinking this is normal.
    When spinning the wheels they are not silent, there's a rubbing sound, the same on both sides, maybe the brakes? I don't know.
    It made me think of something though:
    I just replaced the front pads a few months back myself, got the real Toyota ones, and using my FSM it was a real breeze. However I remember not seeing all the parts listed in the manual.........there are some "anti squeal" and "anti rattle" parts and springs that I didn't have, they weren't on the van to begin with. So I just figured that was fine and replaced the pads. I can't remember if some/all those parts where gone, but it was the same on both sides so thats that.
    Could those missing parts cause the issue I'm having, or does that not matter?
    mark

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    Wheel noise?

    Folks-
    For as long as I've had my van, less than a year, there's been a sound that I hear that seems to be wheel related but I may be wrong.
    It comes from up front, it speeds up ands slows down with the speed of the ride, it kinda sounds like a bad tire or something, just a whump whump whump, not real loud but it does seem a little louder now than it did a year ago.
    I suspected wheel bearings at first but after REALLY listening to the sound, windows down, different speeds, there's nothing metallic or grindy at about the sound, which seems to be the things you associate with bad bearings. I do have a receipt for new bearings/grease from some previous owner, done 20K ago or so. That of course doesn't mean they were done right, but at least I know they're not original.
    The tires are brand newish, Hankooks, great tires. The sound didn't change from the old tires to new tires, so I know its not a tire issue.
    Not sure what this could be, any leads?
    Everything else is good on the van, the previous grindy noises I heard up front that made me suspect bearings turned out to be the wear indicators on the pads, replaced those, that sound went away. Gas mileage is good so I don't suspect a dragging shoe or anything. 22-23 on the highway.
    thanks for any help!
    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Problems like that can be really hard to diagnose without hands-on. Does it change at all while in 4wd?

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Ah yes, before I head back to the city I'm gonna do a quick checks.

    Test drive in 4WD, the quick checks w/ bar for upper/lower ball joints, then have someone rock the wheels at 6 and 12 and see if I can see where the play is.

    Loose bearings: would the wheel only be loose at 12 and 6 or why not at 3 and 9 too?

    We'll see what I turn up here.

    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Rocking the wheel at 6 & 12 is typically for checking ball joints & rocking at 3 & 9 is for checking Tie rods. Of course loose bearings will be part of whatever play there is in both tests. If you're just feeling a small amount of play and it's the same on both sides then that's a good indication it's normal. If a large amount of play is detected, then you need to get a helper to wiggle the wheel for you so you can get down there to see exactly where the play is coming from.

    Having a small amount of play from your wheel bearings is nothing to be worried about. For most vehicles with this type of tapered wheel bearings it's normal. On the 4wd van Toyota recommends torquing the spindle nut to 11 ft lbs, but having torque here (even 11 ft lbs) will accelerate bearing wear. It's my experience that torque on that nut will not stay anyhow (after a few hundred miles the torque will be back to 0). When I set these up I usually torque the nut, spin the wheel by hand to seat, then back it off to hand tight before setting the lock nut and bending the locking tabs.

    FWIW, bad ball joints won't make noise that changes with speed. Other than clunking on bumps, you wouldn't normally hear them. Noises that change frequency with speed are typically associated with brakes or drive train. If the noise goes away while in 4wd, then you've ruled out the brakes. Tim

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Okay found the problem.

    In 4wd the noise was still there.

    However, after checking the ball joints I tried to spin the front driveshaft. It was engaged. I lifted the right front wheel and spun it, the CV turned, this wheel isn't disengaging. The other wheel is fine but now after using 4wd it makes a noise like a baseball card in the spokes, but ONLY when up off the ground, not while driving.

    How can I get the right front wheel unlocked? I've been wanting to upgrade to the manual hubs anyway but if there's a way to get it disengaged in the meantime that would be great.

    Its been driven like this for many many miles, across the country too. Any potential long term damage?

    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Since it is just a standard differential I doubt it hurt anything (other than gas mileage). I never liked auto hubs for this very reason, so I agree this would be a great time to upgrade to manual. The good news is these hubs are the same as all the other locking hubs Toyota used in this era so they are common and plentiful. You can purchase new Warn (and other brand) hubs almost anywhere, but I prefer the original Aisins. They usually sell for about $75 a set on eBay but I would watch craigslist (last pair I got I paid $25 for off of craigslist). Tim

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    When switching over, other than purchasing the actual hubs, you will also need nuts, washers and the 54mm socket. Here's a kit that has everything together (except the actual hubs). I have purchased from these guys before and was happy. http://www.wabfab.org/component/opti...roduct_id,702/

    PS: Ignore the picture in their listing.........I think they got the wrong one posted. Here's a couple of hub listings on eBay.....these are just a couple out of many.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/91-TOYOTA-PI...ht_2771wt_1396

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-picku...97#ht_162wt_44

    UPDATE 8/24/14: Before ordering from WabFab check THIS POST

  9. #9
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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Oh yeah thats a great price for the kit w/ socket, I'll have to go that route. I think I found some good hubs, we'll see if I can get the price down.

    You gotta love the WabFab site, "the Wabbit will Fab It", just classic!

    Oh, what about gaskets? Any gaskets needed?

    thanks a bunch

    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Yes I am on the hunt now for some of the Aisin hubs. Gotta be some local ones if I dig, in fact a buddy of mine told me he knows a guy with a 4wd parts van.....too bad I just lost my cell phone!

    Funny thing about this, my gas mileage is good, I get 22-23 very consistently on the highway, I thought this was normal, and if fixing this hub makes it better, well, thats awesome!

    Oh, here's something I'm gonna have to track down:

    What are the Toyota part numbers for the 54mm nuts and washers I'm going to need? My local Stealership is terrible to deal with unless I have an actual part number. I think I need 4 nuts and how many washers?

    thanks!

    mark

  11. #11
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    Re: Wheel noise?

    The WabFab kit is the way to go (link above) as you get everything including the socket. If you go to Toyota you will probably pay more and you won't get the socket. If you really want the Toyota stuff, here's what you will need:


    (qty: 2) 90214-42030 WASHER, CLAW (FOR STEERING KNUCKLE WASHER)

    (qty: 4) 43521-60011 NUT, FRONT WHEEL ADJUSTING

    (qty: 2) 90215-42025 WASHER, FRONT WHEEL ADJUSTING LOCK

    Here is a link for purchasing a socket separately: http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/otc1901.html (2-3/32" is the same as 54mm)

  12. #12
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    Re: Wheel noise?

    BTW, there is a gasket behind the hub, but it usually stays intact and can be re-used. It would probably be a good idea to have these on hand just in case. It's Toyota #43422-60020 GASKET, FRONT AXLE OUTER SHAFT FLANGE (1 per side). Since you're in there it would also be a great time to inspect and repack the wheel bearings. If you do this you'll also need some grease and the grease seals. Grease seals are Toyota #90311-66002 SEAL, OIL (also 1 per side). Have fun! Tim

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Okay, a little more detail and a few more thoughts. There's also a gasket between the hub body and the face that can usually be saved and re-used but might not be a bad idea to have on hand for the upgrade. For the sake of simplicity I marked up a diagram with part numbers:





    Another thought regarding the noise, there's a spring clip on the diagram above that keeps your axle from moving in & out of the hub (it's marked #43413B). Make sure that clip is there as I've seen these make noise before when this clip was missing. Also make sure that the bolt marked #90119-08468 is there and snug. Tim

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Tim is right again.
    Red was missing the clip and the shim (43213C), though I had no noises to indicate anything was amiss.
    At the time I just installed a new clip and shim but wish I had looked further at the time as there was damage in there.
    Have since overhauled the spindles with new bushings/bearings and was able to save the axles, but it was close.

    From page FA-60 of the service manual - install a small pair of vice grips to the axle end bolt and pull (22ft-lbs of force),
    insert a feeler gauge between the washer and spindle outside bushing.
    fr drive shaft thrust clearance: 0.075-0.690mm (.0030-0272in)
    Spacer is available in 2 widths 1.80mm(.0709in) and 2.25mm(.0886in)

    Glad you found your problem.

    BB

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Tim , thanks for the diagrams/parts numbers.

    I'm gonna be bidding on some good used hubs today, I think I'll get them for less than $50 shipped which is a good deal I think.

    Then I just have to assemble the parts and find time to do the job, which requires a trip back to my folks place in the country, no biggie!

    My real hope is to get this done before the snow/ice hits in January/Feb.

    Oh, what does one use to clean up the old bearings and races? And any wheel bearing grease is okay?

    thanks!

    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Any grease rated for wheel bearings is okay. I used to only use the black moly grease, but recently switched to the expensive red synthetic stuff. Due to possible compatibility issues, if it's your 1st time repacking a particular vehicle, then it's important to clean out all the old grease with solvent and blow dry. Mineral spirits paint thinner is a good solvent and will work well to clean. When you blow dry be careful not to spin the bearings with the compressed air. You can get these things spinning incredible speeds and this is dangerous (they can fly apart and cause injury).

    Over time the grease gets pushed/slung away from the roller bearings (where it needs to be), so repacking is simply to put it back where it belongs. If you already know the type of grease that's there (and if bearings look clean/undamaged) you don't need to wash them with solvent. Just pack more of the same kind of grease back into the cage with the roller bearings. Some newbies will pack the entire hub full of grease, this is messy and unnecessary. Too much grease can also create other problems like contaminating your brakes (be very careful not to get any grease on your brakes). It's a good idea to wipe just a tiny bit on the lip of your grease seal before sliding the hub back on, but other than that keep the grease inside the hub.

    When it comes to your locking hubs, make sure they are clean inside and move freely. They don't need a bunch of grease, but there should be a thin film on the axle splines and on any areas where there's moving parts. Oh the joys of repacking bearings . Enjoy!

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Can I let the bearings air dry? I don't have compressed air unless buying a little canister of it will do.

    One thing I thought of, I still have the receipt from the place in Portland where some previous owner had the bearings repacked a few years back, I can give them a ring and ask them what grease they use and if its what they have been using for awhile. Anything to save me some time, I just don't have any to spare!!

    mark

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    On jobs like this I have found it prudent not to try to "save time" as it always ends up costing me in the long run.

    I washed mine with solvent then a quick blast of brake clean because I didn't have compressed air available, lots of wiping was done during the process. I don't let them "air dry" as bare metal can start to rust very quickly. Rusty bearings are not good, get them into grease as soon as practical.
    Inspect the bearings carefully, the rollers should be smooth - no ridges, rings or scratches. They should also be nice and shiny, almost chrome in appearance, if burnt they will have a visible blackish hue and must be replaced.
    Keep all the bearings in order (ls/rs, inner/outer) and put them back in the same position they came out of.
    If you replace the bearings, make sure you replace the races inside the hubs.
    And always use new seals, it isn't worth trying to reuse, they will get damaged on removal.

    I made the switch to synthetic grease years ago because we found it stays in place longer and will handle more heat.
    As for packing, you can buy yourself on of those fancy gadgets they sell at auto parts stores, I prefer to do it by hand so I can see that the grease has fully penetrated and no dirt or air spaces remain, those gadgets also waste a huge amount of grease and I am cheap.

    I have found the best method is to place a golf ball sized blob of grease in the palm of your wrong hand, holding the clean bearing in your predominate hand, push the bearing (on a slight angle so that the grease is pushed into the space at the bottom (wide end) between the race and cage) into the grease and give it a little twist as you go. You will see the grease start to walk up thru the rollers and squeeze out the top side of the bearing between the cage and the race. Keep turning the bearing as you go, you will likely see some dirt push up (at first) as you work your way around, just wipe it off with a separate rag and keep packing till you get clean grease, a thin wipe over all surfaces and place on a clean rag, do all the bearings at the same time, once your done, take all the excess on your hands and use it to wipe a thin layer on all surfaces - spindle, seal edge, hub.... then go wash and get ready to assemble.

    If you work carefully you will be done in no time and know everything is 100%.
    It really isn't the sort of thing you want to have to do again anytime soon so don't cut corners or take chances, Murphy is never far away.

    I highly recommend a torque wrench too, knowing that you set the torque to the exact spec is comforting. Even more so if problems develop down the road, nothing worse than wondering if you screwed up, better to know you did everything by the book.

    BB

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Great response BB

    The other reason for compressed air is it helps blast out the grease that hides in the cage. But if you don't have it perhaps air in a can will do. Tim

    PS: Mark, did you end up with those eBay hubs (my 2nd link)? I see everybody waited until the last minute to bid, and then they sold for more than the guys BIN price .

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    Re: Wheel noise?

    Check your transfer case, it may be loose.. If there is any play it will make a clunking sound, Cruising at low speed practically at idle. Sound goes away under power.

    nothing you can do about it. my van does it, had it checked out and they said deal with it.
    At the sirens of humanity we STOMP!

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