1986 stalling issue

[Metalghost]

Okay. I'm back. Got all the codes cleared.

Code 2 and 8 were cleared by taking out the Air flow meter and cleaning the connections and moving parts. Then changing out all vacuum lines. Pretty clean so not sure what was really wrong but error codes went away.

Then got Code 6 and cleared that by changing out the distributor. I suspect the new dizzy wasn't sending the Ne signal to the ECU while cranking. Changed out plugs and wires just for good measure.

Now I am code free but still stalling. Does worse if I give it gas. Youtube link to the way it starts up below. I've checked my fuel pressure and it is 41PSI and flowing good. Haven't pulled the injectors but they seem to be working since it turns over. I don't have reason to believe the ECU is the issue anymore. Tried to adjust the timing but it doesn't seem to resolve the issue. This is pretty much as good as I can get it.

Idea's of what to try or chase next?


1986 Toyota Van stalling issue - YouTube

or cut and paste below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ALZe8-EDrIs?feature=share

[Headhunter38]

Is it possible you just aren't cranking it enough? Compared to my van it seems like not enough

[Metalghost]

If I keep the key cranked the starter grinds. Also if I give it gas it dies.

is it possible to have too much gas? The new plugs are pretty black already.

[Headhunter38]

Yes but that would be from regulator failing but it would still run albeit probably roughly. You are going to have to check each system listed in code 6 here http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/c...gons-all-years. I believe in this video https://youtu.be/KDzT9ku7kpk he says he experienced a similar thing where the engine would fire a couple of times in the beginning like yours does before it stopped altogether and only cranked. You could have the same issue.

[Metalghost]

Well I’m in the right track then. Per the code list, I’ve changed the distributor, coil, wires, plugs and changed out to new vacuum lines. That seemed to stop it from throwing codes so got those problems solved.

Watched the link and I’ve already replaced the part he did and confirmed I have spark with a in line spark tester and also since it turns.

ECU? Even thought I’m not getting a code? It is advanced all the way forward with the distributor groove just to get it to turn over. Possible the ECU isn’t doing the start timing job and I’m doing to compensating manually?

The plugs are a little black but not sure if that is from all the cold starts and restarts with fuel from the last stumble and stall? Does seem rich though since it does if I give it gas.

Uhhhggg. Really need some thoughts on this.

[Burntboot]

One of the reasons the search function is a little clunky is sometimes people make multiple threads, all on the same subject.
I am having a little trouble following you trajectory as to whats been done and when, flipping between different threads doesn't help.

So far, as much as I can tell, you have changed the distributor and have to have it cranked all the way to the end of the slot.
That only happens when the distributor is installed 1 tooth off from where it should be.
If the distributor is off by one tooth, it will never, ever run right, period.

This has to be sorted out before you can do any further diagnosis.

[Metalghost]

Burntboot.

Thanks this is what I was looking for. I'm going to go back and see if I can redo this. It does seem off that I'm maxed out on the timing adjustment.

Sorry about the subject bump. I wanted to move the chat so people could find the problem under the different problem descriptions as I am past the original problems. But for a historical look I will describe it all together.

The van was my fathers and had sat a long time. And when I got it first thing I did was drain the fuel, put a new fuel filter on and put on a new battery. It cranked but didn't turn over.

1) I dove into the pump as the first thing to check. I did the pump short to verify the pump works. The did work and I could hear fuel in the return lines. So I checked the regulator by checking the pump PSI. It was 41 (range for my year is 31-38) Tim said that was fine. I also verified the flow was adequate. At least before the injectors and at the cold start line.

2) I checked spark next with a in line spark tester. I saw sparks on all 4.

3) For air, I couldn't changed out the air filter.

4) At this point, I didn't see anything obvious. But found out there is a way to check stored codes. Hadn't seen the engine light on before this.

5) There was a code 2 and code 2 and 8. So I replaced vacuum hoses and took off the flow meter and cleaned the connection and oiled the movements. Reinstalled and that cleared the codes. But now was getting code 6

6) For Code 6. I first tool the distributor (I think original) on there checked connections. I moved the TDC and found that when I moved it all the way advance it would turn over but die. Still had the code and thinking it wasn't getting a signal still I decided to put in new plugs, wires and distributor assembly (with coil). That has cleared up the code. But curiously the new distributor is still cranked all the way advanced.

Now that I am here. I can check the distributor again and see if I can get it more centered. At least to the point where I have the full range to adjust the timing.

Also a question. There are two plugs on the engine right inside the dizzy. One is a spade and one a green connector to sensors going into the block. Anyone know what those are. I think a temp sensor and something else? I broke the green connector wire when taking the dizzy in and out. I am in process of repair it. Want to make sure that isn't complicated the start and running. Not getting a code so reasoning it isn't part of the ECU inputs right now.

I will keep you all informed on how it goes. I did see someone else had a similar issue and that it was solved when he had the dizzy reinstalled and it was noted it was hard to get aligned. So hope this is it.

[Burntboot]

First off the diagnostic system in the van does not function the way you hoped.
Its more Stone tablet than iPhone X

Having codes with no MIL is condition normal and why we always tell everyone to check for codes before doing anything else, just in case.
And a code only identifies a system that isnt functioning normally, not a part that needs replacement.

"I moved the TDC and found" - you cannot move TDC.

TDC means "Top Dead Centre" and references the position of the piston, in the cylinder, at the top of its stroke.
You will need to find TDC in order to set the distributor correctly.
That procedure has been well detailed in the past, you will have to search for the procedure, as I don't have time to do it for you.
You will also need to verify the integrity of the harmonic balancer (not spun)
Yikes, more threads to look into.

Not sure on your connectors question, but any connection INSIDE the distributor will be required for function.
Off the top of my head I don't remember anything other than the engine wiring harness plugging into the distributor,

There is a green plug on the side of the dizzy that provides an RPM reference signal, but that is all I remember.
Mine never had a factory tach and I used that port for a signal.
I have no idea if the factory tach models used that port, or not.

[Burntboot]

And why could you not access the air filter?
Its a Pita agreed, but it must be inspected.
If an engine can't breath, it cant run and given that it was in long term hibernation, anything is possible.

Mice and chipmunks really enjoy making nests inside of well protected "caves"
BTDT2

[Metalghost]

Well made some progress.

Burnt boot you were right I was a tooth off on the distributor install. I realized that cause I took the distributor clamp down bolt out and rotated it way beyond the slot adjustment and it seemed to get better. So I took it out and redid it a few time and the rotor ended up a bit advanced to the #1 cap position. So with the distributor in it’s adjustment slot range, it cranks and starts up but still dies after a hot second or two. No error codes reporting. Going through the trouble shooting manual now. But any tips would be greatly appreciated.

The air filter sentence got cut off. I meant to say I couldn’t get to it but after I took all the stuff off I got it changed. Had to take off the air meter, cleaner hose and a bunch of wiring to get the lid off. No nests but I once found a nest and mouse in my air cleaner of my minicooper I drove everyday but parked outside.

So my big question is what is the green sensor below the oil pressure sender plugged into the passenger side of the block. Same wire harness as the oil pressure sender plug. I canÂ’t find it in the manual. I broke it and need to fix it but want to know if it is part of my problem. No error codes so thinking it isn’t part of my issue.

[MarkH]

One should be the temperature to the computer and the other is the temperature sender to the gauge in the dash. I'd still try jumpering the fuel pump test connector and try starting the van that way to rule out a bad fuel pump switch on the air filter housing. If that switch doesn't detect airflow, it immediately shuts off the fuel pump. Of course if the spark timing is way off, it won't run even if everything else is perfect.

[Metalghost]

Here is where I am with this now. Reinstalled the distributor position per the manual positive I am in the right spot, tooth and stroke. I verified by opening the oil cap and confirming the two valves were closed during the upstroke before TDC.

NO error codes still. So I worked down the list and no vacuum leaks, I have spark on all 4 and pump is working by jumping the pump test connector. I did test the air meter pump cut off and that seems to be working. I took off the hose to the air meter and when I push the meter flapper in, I could hear the fuel. So pretty sure it is doing it's job.


My working theories now are the fuel injectors or idle? But here are my questions around that.

Is it possible that the is starting up off the cold start injectors and the 4 main injectors and just not doing their jobs? This care did sit a long time. I know I can check the signals to the injectors but not that they are actually squirting into the chambers unless I take off the whole intake manifold and fuel rails right?

Any ideas forum?

Start up stall issue. Any suggestions? - YouTube

or cut and paste below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Qe4JUnG_8zU?feature=share

[Headhunter38]

have you checked the air intake in front of the air filter all the way to the end is clear? the intake is decently long and just changing the air filter would not be enough if there was an obstruction farther up.

[MarkH]

To verify if it's a fuel delivery problem, I'd try spraying carb cleaner or something flammable into the intake when starting and see if it continues to run (probably roughly), while continuing to spray.

[MarkH]

One last thing, if there are any splits in the rubber intake hose (which can sometimes be hard to see), it can create enough of a vacuum drop in the intake that the fuel pump switch flap can't stay open and the fuel pump shuts off.

[Metalghost]

Thanks Headhunter and MarkH. Going to check the intake feed first. It is a long run!

I did previously try to run it with the air cleaner hose off and manually pushing the flap open. I could hear it open the rail soon as I posted it open. Like trickling water. I am guessing that is pressuring down since this was before I turned key and got the pump going. I am becoming suspect that I have pressure and fuel at the rail but nothing or not enough is getting past the injectors. It does turn over though but I’m wondering if that is just from the cold start injectors or an initial amount but they can’t keep up. Something else I noticed is that if I try and start it a second or third time it gets progressively worse. Meaning it dies sooner or takes won’t turn over at all. I was wondering if it had power issues so I put on a start charger and it does the same thing. Does anyone know how the cold start injector works. For example does it give a shot to start with each key turn or just additive to the injectors shot?

Also Mark to try the carb cleaner or start. Should I just take off the air hose cleaner hose and shoot it in there? I guess it won’t matter that the flapper switch for the fuel won’t be on. Since I am bypassing the fuel all together.

Wish me luck will these next.

[MarkH]

I have a 1st gen van (1985), so things might be slightly different with your 1986 2nd gen, but as far as I know, opening that flap in the intake to turn on the fuel pump switch shouldn't do anything except allow the fuel pump to run when the key is in the running position. I'm not sure what the sound you heard was. For spraying in the carb cleaner, you could manually hold the flap open to keep the fuel pump running or spray the carb cleaner through a vacuum hose (which might not allow enough atomized spray in, but it might cause the van to sort of stumbly-run and let you know that it would run properly if more fuel was properly getting in if that makes sense). As for the cold start injector, without checking the manual, I think it just gives a quick spray of fuel into the intake on startup when the engine is cold. I've disconnected mine at the wiring connector before, and the van still started fine. I wonder if yours could be leaking by and dumping too much fuel into the intake making the mix to be too rich. You could try disconnecting the wiring connector to the cold start injector and see if the van starts and runs any different. It's a long shot, but it's a quick and easy check. As for the main injectors not firing, you could try starting the van, cranking it over a few times after it stalls and then remove the spark plugs and see if they are wet and smell like fuel.

[MarkH]

Also Mark to try the carb cleaner or start. Should I just take off the air hose cleaner hose and shoot it in there? I guess it won’t matter that the flapper switch for the fuel won’t be on. Since I am bypassing the fuel all together.

Actually, that would be a good idea too, to try the carb cleaner by itself without the fuel pump running. This could rule out too much fuel being dumped through the injectors.

[Metalghost]

Ah. Excellent ideas.

As to the flapper on sound. I have the key in and in position two and when I press in the flapper I hear a trickle. So I am assuming the pump is on and I am hearing the fuel in the return. Something for sure is happening when I press it in and key in start position.

Your reply gave me some ideas. I’m going to try and start it without the cold start connected and see if it does the same thing.

Then I will try to wet the spark plugs by cranking after it stalls. This may help me see if they are working at all.

After that I’ll try the carb cleaner in the cleaner hose (with flapper pushed in) this will help me zoom out and see if I have a fuel system problem.

I’m starting to wonder if there is something happening at the ECU after it starts up. Like the idle timing is off or something ECU controlled.

no codes yet so I’m hoping the ECU is not it.

[Metalghost]

Also going to carefully tap 12v on injectors 1 and 2. See if I can hear them open and close. Maybe they are stuck one way.